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Thread: First Amendment claims don’t always win

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    First Amendment claims don’t always win





    BY GENE POLICINSKI

    T
    he First Amendment’s five freedoms ensure that gov­ernment doesn’t run rough­shod over our religious liberty and free- expression rights.

    But sometimes, the First Amendment doesn’t win out.

    Thankfully, it’s not all that of­ten. When it does happen, gener­ally the situation involves balanc­ing one of the First Amendment freedoms — religion, speech, press, assembly and petition — against other parts of the Bill of Rights.

    The threat of terrorism is one such area. Critics of unrestrained speech by our enemies — and sometimes, of opponents at home — have observed that the First Amendment is not “a suicide pact.”

    At other times, constitutional collisions involve personal safety, public health, individual privacy or religious rights.

    The U.S. Supreme Court recent­ly refused to rehear a Colorado Supreme Court decision involving a ban on actors smoking on stage as part of their performances.

    The state court, in a 6-1 ruling, ranked public-health concerns over the free-speech argument raised by three creative groups.

    In its decision, the Colorado court acknowledged the free­expression argument, but said, “Even assuming that theatrical smoking actually can amount to protected expressive conduct un­der some circumstances, the law doesn’t infringe on free speech because it’s ‘content neutral’ ” — not aimed at one brand or type of cigarette or cigar, presumably — and was “narrowly tailored to serve the state’s substantial inter­est in protecting the public health and welfare.”

    There’s a short list of excep­tions to First Amendment pro­tection — true threats, fighting words, criminal solicitation, libel, obscenity, child pornography and perjury among them. And gov­ernment can regulate the time, place and manner of expression.

    A vigorous political speech that is highly protected when delivered at noon in the public square likely would not be — though the con­tent is the same — when shouted at 3 a.m. under your bedroom window.

    Recently, two important cases tested First Amendment free­doms. One involved spending-as­speech in the political arena, the other the legitimacy of a ban on distasteful videos in which ani­mals are killed. In both instances, unfettered speech was the victor.

    This fall, the U.S. Supreme Court will consider a challenging case involving a Kansas family group, organized as a church, which regularly protests at the funerals of men and women killed while serving in the U.S. military.

    They believe such deaths are God’s punishment of America for tolerating homosexuality.

    In 2006, the group protested at the funeral of 20-year-old Marine Matthew Snyder — reportedly carrying signs that read, “Thank God for Dead Soldiers” and “You’re going to Hell.”

    In a brief filed Wednesday, law­yers for the Marine’s father, Al­bert Snyder, said the group’s pro­test interfered with the funeral, “a religious ceremony entitled to constitutional protection.” They also said the group’s “freedom of speech should have ended where it conflicted with Mr. Snyder’s freedom to participate in his son’s funeral, which was intended to be a solemn religious gathering.”

    It’s likely that the Kansas group’s tactics and message of­fend most Americans. But it’s also true that the words spoken in national debates over most im­portant issues throughout history have offended many, from civil rights to women’s suffrage, from health-care policy to taxation, to name but a few.

    Sometimes we need to hear fully the ideas we dislike if only the better to oppose them.

    Gene Policinski is vice president and executive director of the First Amendment Center, Washington, D.C. E-mail him at gpolicinski@fac.org.









    ">Copyright 2010 Monroe Publishing Co. 05/30/2010






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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Very thought provoking to be sure!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    thanks taxwhat

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    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Very thought provoking to be sure!
    I just woke up!, my poor brain...
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I read about that group who protests at soldiers' funerals. True nutcases, those people. No respect whatsoever. Very small group, thankfully.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    I read about that group who protests at soldiers' funerals. True nutcases, those people. No respect whatsoever. Very small group, thankfully.
    those ******** are the Westboro Baptist Church...they make their money suing the hell outta police departments and individuals...thank gawd for the Patriot Guard Riders...
    -NRA Member, GSSF Member, GeorgiaCarry Member, Glock Certified Armorer, Glock 30SF, STI Elektra, M&P9c, NAA Black Widow .22 WMR
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    Im a Baptist, but I would never dream of acting like this. To me, thats like those guys in Adrian claiming to be militia.

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    The Westboro Baptist Church is doing the same thing to their faith as what the Klu Klux Klan did with Christianity in general, and Jihadist are doing with Islam...



    Corrupting it to further their agenda of hateand intolerance against a specific group.



    These people are morons. Do they have the right to express their moronic views? Sure. The question becomes when does the expression of these views become specific harrassment? I think showing up at a single soldier's burial is damn skippy near the line, if not over it.

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    There is plenty in the Bible about how Christians are to truely conduct themselves. It pretty much boils down to the idea of a "good citizen" 99% of the time.

    Submission to the government (even a totalitarian government) is outlined in Romans 13. Even slaves are not told to rise up and fight for their rights, but instead to "obey their masters". Such concepts are counter-cultural to most Americans, and patriots in particular.

    That being said, nothin that Westboro Baptist Church does lines up with anything I can see in the Bible. They bring shame, not honor, to the name of The Lord Jesus Christ.

    A good suggestion for them would be to read Matthew 7: 15-23

    [/sup]
    15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
    ...kinda a wakeup call for them me thinks. Scary that those types of people think that they are doing the will of God and might just wake up one day in a very dark, very hot place.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

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    Cristians in America are caught in a difficult position concerning Romans 13, and the way our government works. Our leadership serves us, they work for us. Of the people, We the people, etc... We have to practice Romans 13, yet balance that with the fact that this country works the opposite of most countries, as far as the relationship between servant and master.

    As far a A2 is concerned, the RKBA was given by God, as a pre existing right, that was merely recognised by the founders. They do not have a greater overriding authoritry than God, or the people that this government serves. The Declaration of independence gives the people the authority to overthrow this government if certain conditions are met, and I do not beleive that such an overthrow, violent or otherwise, would run against Romans 13.



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    I don't believe there is a conflict with Romans 13.

    In theory we are reacting appropriately and being good citizens when we protest and exercise our rights. It's encouraged by the founders and the government (or at least it should be). As long as you are still maintaining yourself as a law-abiding citizen, but an active one, you are not violating anything. That's just my opinion.

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    I'm not a Paulite and don't buy Romans 13 as legitimate. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus says pledge no oath to .gov in Matthew 5:33-37. That's the one I'm going with.

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    What is a paulite? Ive never heard that before.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    What is a paulite? Ive never heard that before.
    Let google be your guide...

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paulite
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    No, no. I'm referring to the text of Romans as being the testimony of the apostle Paul. Paul has been criticized as either simply misconstruing or, worse, distorting and subverting some of the teachings of Jesus. I don't pretend to be religious and I don't attend church, but I do recognize that several of the teachings/parables found in the gospels to have value. If a philosophy has value, then it's worth acknowledgment.

    Imo, Jesus did not declare obedience/submission to any .gov and never suggested his disciples to do the same. Imo, Romans 13 is the creation from a very different mind. In dealing with the writings of Paul, I stand with Thomas Jefferson:

    "Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

    "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

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    taxwhat wrote:
    First Amendment claims don’t always win





    BY GENE POLICINSKI

    T
    he First Amendment’s five freedoms ensure that gov*ernment doesn’t run rough*shod over our religious liberty and free- expression rights.

    But sometimes, the First Amendment doesn’t win out.

    Thankfully, it’s not all that of*ten. When it does happen, gener*ally the situation involves balanc*ing one of the First Amendment freedoms — religion, speech, press, assembly and petition — against other parts of the Bill of Rights.

    The threat of terrorism is one such area. Critics of unrestrained speech by our enemies — and sometimes, of opponents at home — have observed that the First Amendment is not “a suicide pact.”

    At other times, constitutional collisions involve personal safety, public health, individual privacy or religious rights.

    The U.S. Supreme Court recent*ly refused to rehear a Colorado Supreme Court decision involving a ban on actors smoking on stage as part of their performances.

    The state court, in a 6-1 ruling, ranked public-health concerns over the free-speech argument raised by three creative groups.

    In its decision, the Colorado court acknowledged the free*expression argument, but said, “Even assuming that theatrical smoking actually can amount to protected expressive conduct un*der some circumstances, the law doesn’t infringe on free speech because it’s ‘content neutral’ ” — not aimed at one brand or type of cigarette or cigar, presumably — and was “narrowly tailored to serve the state’s substantial inter*est in protecting the public health and welfare.”

    There’s a short list of excep*tions to First Amendment pro*tection — true threats, fighting words, criminal solicitation, libel, obscenity, child pornography and perjury among them. And gov*ernment can regulate the time, place and manner of expression.

    A vigorous political speech that is highly protected when delivered at noon in the public square likely would not be — though the con*tent is the same — when shouted at 3 a.m. under your bedroom window.

    Recently, two important cases tested First Amendment free*doms. One involved spending-as*speech in the political arena, the other the legitimacy of a ban on distasteful videos in which ani*mals are killed. In both instances, unfettered speech was the victor.

    This fall, the U.S. Supreme Court will consider a challenging case involving a Kansas family group, organized as a church, which regularly protests at the funerals of men and women killed while serving in the U.S. military.

    They believe such deaths are God’s punishment of America for tolerating homosexuality.

    In 2006, the group protested at the funeral of 20-year-old Marine Matthew Snyder — reportedly carrying signs that read, “Thank God for Dead Soldiers” and “You’re going to Hell.”

    In a brief filed Wednesday, law*yers for the Marine’s father, Al*bert Snyder, said the group’s pro*test interfered with the funeral, “a religious ceremony entitled to constitutional protection.” They also said the group’s “freedom of speech should have ended where it conflicted with Mr. Snyder’s freedom to participate in his son’s funeral, which was intended to be a solemn religious gathering.”

    It’s likely that the Kansas group’s tactics and message of*fend most Americans. But it’s also true that the words spoken in national debates over most im*portant issues throughout history have offended many, from civil rights to women’s suffrage, from health-care policy to taxation, to name but a few.

    Sometimes we need to hear fully the ideas we dislike if only the better to oppose them.

    Gene Policinski is vice president and executive director of the First Amendment Center, Washington, D.C. E-mail him at gpolicinski@fac.org.









    ">Copyright 2010 Monroe Publishing Co. 05/30/2010





    Problem with the church group protesting funerals, the very point they attempt to make can not be illustrated in their own belief system IE. Bible. The Supreme court is a pack of fools. If this idiot court opened a bible they would find out there is nothing to links the two subjects. Homosexuality is the punishment (effect) not the cause as they stated. Anyone who grasps the concept of "cause and effect" and reads the bible knows this. Homosexuality is punishment for Idolatry and it is clearly stated as such with NO contradictions. Read Romans 1 the complete chapter, then read Exodus 20:1-6 and it confirms the punishment will be visited on the Family for up to 4 generations for the very same act in Romans 1. Exodus 20:1through 6 is merely reinforcement of the same cause and effect relationship IE Idolatry causes homosexuality as a punishment. Thus the Supreme Court is a failure as a body to discern fact from fiction, because the so called Church has created out of thin air a lie to use as an excuse for what is a political act of psychological terrorism, not religious.

    I have total disdain for the Supreme court and it's stupidity of not checking facts nor supporting our rights to universal FREE carry whether concealed or open without Government involvement. In my humble opinion the Supreme court commits treason so often it would be hard to count. Treason is a crime against the Government and our Government is "OF FOR AND BY THE PEOPLE" not the self declared royalty of congress.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    CoonDog wrote:
    No, no. I'm referring to the text of Romans as being the testimony of the apostle Paul. Paul has been criticized as either simply misconstruing or, worse, distorting and subverting some of the teachings of Jesus. I don't pretend to be religious and I don't attend church, but I do recognize that several of the teachings/parables found in the gospels to have value. If a philosophy has value, then it's worth acknowledgment.

    Imo, Jesus did not declare obedience/submission to any .gov and never suggested his disciples to do the same. Imo, Romans 13 is the creation from a very different mind. In dealing with the writings of Paul, I stand with Thomas Jefferson:

    "Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

    "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
    Paul has been attacked by the Romans since day one. The recent years of Paul bashing and I was one who doubted him for a moment is and directly comes from the Jesuits of the Roman Church today. The Jesuits are a renegade body in the Roman church who have been proven to be a bunch of radical homosexual extremists. They take huge exception to Paul calling them out as Idolaters and homosexuals. Reading Romans chapter one you can see where Paul directly links the Jesuits idol worship to their homosexuality from back then in his days to today it has never changed. The Jesuits are a military wing of the Church, in recent years the Church has admitted that they killed over 500 MILLION people in the name of the Church and Pope Paul public ally apologised for this, but nothing has changed the same freaks (Jesuits) are in power still. Hans Kolvenbach the General of the Jesuits is well known to be a radical homosexual and still the Church keeps him in power. There is a large group of Roman Catholics who have been fighting this and the media refuses to tell their story, but what does one expect with FOX news being almost 100% roman catholic and ran by a radical Roman Catholic himself Rupert Murdock. I feel for Catholics who have tried to make changes and can't get anywhere.

    Paul placed a wooden stake (verbally) in their hearts of the Roman Church and ever since they have promulgated a smear campaign against him. Many radical White Nationalists, Nazis, and KKK types support the Paul bashing still today. Those who believe when it rains during their picnic it must be a Jew conspiracy types also bash Paul. Interesting groups are they not? Look at their Rhetoric on Paul it is relentless. So don't be fooled by the folly of the Paul bashers, they are all cut from the same cloth and are all connected as radical Jew hating extremists. Oh I was raised Roman Catholic and I am from 100% Pure German Mother and a 100% Irish Catholic father stock. I know the stupidity of the Paul bashers. Now I am a former Roman Catholic.

    Enough said, just don't be so easily mislead folks...


    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    sevenplusone wrote:
    I don't believe there is a conflict with Romans 13.

    In theory we are reacting appropriately and being good citizens when we protest and exercise our rights. It's encouraged by the founders and the government (or at least it should be). As long as you are still maintaining yourself as a law-abiding citizen, but an active one, you are not violating anything. That's just my opinion.
    There is this thing called "context" that 99% of so called Christians fail to understand. Taking one verse from one book then trying to attach it to another verse 500 pages later is a mockery of the Bible. Romans 13 says to OBEY what? Powers?

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    So here we see Ordained by God? Right? So is barney Frank a rabid homosexual who ran a call boy service out of his tax payer paid for apartment Ordained? Think people! No he violates all of Gods laws thus he can NOT be ordained. He is in fact a condemned man and reprobate if you can read a bible.

    Only a Power that is in direct obedience to GODS laws are ordained. Not evil doers. I am shocked as to why so many who claim to be a Christian can't see the simplicity of this. if the bible is read in context we are in trouble because we have not rebelled against an Anti Christ Government. They very act of attacking the GOD granted rights of the Constitution make those who do so GODS enemies. We are told to HATE GODS enemies. We should be removing them from power not obeying their Anti-Christ rulings.

    Give Unto Caesar what is "his" does not mean you, GOD Owns you NOT Caesar. Yes give him his fake money fractional reserve fiat paper money, and use silver and Gold. use that fake money to buy the real money GOD ordered us to use and was used till 1913 (Federal reserve act) and finally stolen from us in 1964 with the removal of silver in the coin.

    Christians need to actually read that bible and in CONTEXT.

    Now we have Nancy Pelosi a rabid Christian hater telling us what GOD means in her interpretations of bible verses that are not in the bible and the drooling masses believe her. The Bible verse don't exist yet people think shes now a Bible scholar. Dear Lord why are people so damnable stupid.

    My advice remains as it has for years, read the bible in CONTEXT as you would any novel, or book, not fragmented verses with NO contextual reference. Read it as a book, after all it is a book.

    And the Atheists might do the same thing and see how we are 100% FREE of illegal laws that crush freedom. Romans 13 ONLY supports obedience to ORDAINED Government this means one that follows GODS laws 100% of the time, otherwise they are not ORDAINED.

    Ok I am putting away my soap box

    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The Expert wrote:
    There is plenty in the Bible about how Christians are to truely conduct themselves. It pretty much boils down to the idea of a "good citizen" 99% of the time.

    Submission to the government (even a totalitarian government) is outlined in Romans 13. Even slaves are not told to rise up and fight for their rights, but instead to "obey their masters". Such concepts are counter-cultural to most Americans, and patriots in particular.

    That being said, nothin that Westboro Baptist Church does lines up with anything I can see in the Bible. They bring shame, not honor, to the name of The Lord Jesus Christ.

    A good suggestion for them would be to read Matthew 7: 15-23

    15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
    ...kinda a wakeup call for them me thinks. Scary that those types of people think that they are doing the will of God and might just wake up one day in a very dark, very hot place.
    Untrue! Our Government is NOT ORDAINED because it violates GODS laws 100% of the time. Thus we the people are Guilty of being supporters of evil. We are to have ORDAINED Government not this mess we have today.

    The Baptist Church twisted GODS word into something he never said. Thus they commit Blasphemy. If anyone has a brain they should read the misinterpretations of this apostate church and protest them as Blasphemers. I bet that word put cold water on their protests as the members wake up and flee that Apostate Church. But Christians today have no back bones.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Bailenforcer wrote:
    There is this thing called "context" that 99% of so called Christians fail to understand. Taking one verse from one book then trying to attach it to another verse 500 pages later is a mockery of the Bible. Romans 13 says to OBEY what? Powers?

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    So here we see Ordained by God? Right?

    The New Testament (covenant) took the place of the Old Testament law, but certainother covenants between God and men were maintained. IE the promise of never having a worldwide flood, the promise of theJews being Gods chosen, The lineage of a Davidic Christ, and the curse of governmentwere maintained. In early history, the Jewish people were ruled by God through a go between, but they wanted a king like the rest of the world. God did not want this, and warned them of the problems involved with it, but the people would not relent. They wanted a king (government). God finally gave them what they thought they wanted, and it has been this way ever since. This was one of those covenants that God will not break, and is recorded in I Samuel 8. Since the New Testament was taking precedence over The Old Testament, yet this government contract of I Samuel 8 was not broken, Jesus re affirmed this state of events in Romans 13. This government is a covenant between God and man, and is basically, a curse. There are several places in the Bible that indicate that God has influence over the people who are in authority, and that he controls who does what, and who is in power and when. This is why we are to honor their authority, it is ordained by God. God rewards and punishes people according to their obedience, and sin, and one of the ways He does this is through governments and their leaders. USA used to be a Christian nation, and the rewards for that were great, so were our leaders. We basically built the world, our language dominated the other languages, we had massive wealth, we were the most powerful military, we went from the wright flyer, to the moon in less than 100 years. Then, as we turned away from God, we started losing it all, freedom, bit by bit, military power, financial leadership, language has been mixed, and many other punishments due to our sins. We have taken prayer out of schools, allowed pornography, gambling, tattooing, evolution, riotous living, drugs and alcohol,we do not honor God as a nation, and as individuals we are few and far between. these are symptoms and punishments of this sin. God gives and takes good successful leadership, and the success that leadership brings according to His will. Both good leadership, and evil. Right now, we have Obama, and his evil socialist government, appointed and ordainedby God as a punishment for the sins of our nation. One of the most important things to Americans is freedom, and the loss of it is a punishment. In order to have this loss, God has allowed certain evil men and women to gain authority of us.

    Re. the comment about homosexuality and idolatry. That is correct. I would like to add though, that homosexuality is in and of itself a sin. and this sin, like all others, is without repentance, punishable by both death and hell. It is an abomination.

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    11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.
    :?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Ignoring the origins of this right, and the origins of government is only seeing part of the story. You cannot fully understand rights without understanding how those rights came to be.

    This previous conversation is directly related to the cite you brought up.

    11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.


  23. #23
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Bailenforcer wrote:
    There is this thing called "context" that 99% of so called Christians fail to understand. Taking one verse from one book then trying to attach it to another verse 500 pages later is a mockery of the Bible. Romans 13 says to OBEY what? Powers?

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    So here we see Ordained by God? Right?

    The New Testament (covenant) took the place of the Old Testament law, but certainother covenants between God and men were maintained. IE the promise of never having a worldwide flood, the promise of theJews being Gods chosen, The lineage of a Davidic Christ, and the curse of governmentwere maintained. In early history, the Jewish people were ruled by God through a go between, but they wanted a king like the rest of the world. God did not want this, and warned them of the problems involved with it, but the people would not relent. They wanted a king (government). God finally gave them what they thought they wanted, and it has been this way ever since. This was one of those covenants that God will not break, and is recorded in I Samuel 8. Since the New Testament was taking precedence over The Old Testament, yet this government contract of I Samuel 8 was not broken, Jesus re affirmed this state of events in Romans 13. This government is a covenant between God and man, and is basically, a curse. There are several places in the Bible that indicate that God has influence over the people who are in authority, and that he controls who does what, and who is in power and when. This is why we are to honor their authority, it is ordained by God. God rewards and punishes people according to their obedience, and sin, and one of the ways He does this is through governments and their leaders. USA used to be a Christian nation, and the rewards for that were great, so were our leaders. We basically built the world, our language dominated the other languages, we had massive wealth, we were the most powerful military, we went from the wright flyer, to the moon in less than 100 years. Then, as we turned away from God, we started losing it all, freedom, bit by bit, military power, financial leadership, language has been mixed, and many other punishments due to our sins. We have taken prayer out of schools, allowed pornography, gambling, tattooing, evolution, riotous living, drugs and alcohol,we do not honor God as a nation, and as individuals we are few and far between. these are symptoms and punishments of this sin. God gives and takes good successful leadership, and the success that leadership brings according to His will. Both good leadership, and evil. Right now, we have Obama, and his evil socialist government, appointed and ordainedby God as a punishment for the sins of our nation. One of the most important things to Americans is freedom, and the loss of it is a punishment. In order to have this loss, God has allowed certain evil men and women to gain authority of us.

    Re. the comment about homosexuality and idolatry. That is correct. I would like to add though, that homosexuality is in and of itself a sin. and this sin, like all others, is without repentance, punishable by both death and hell. It is an abomination.
    We agree except it's high time to get back to what kind of nation we once were and clean up this mess we allowed to happen. It's time to reform the Constitutional Government and one nation Under GOD principle. Then we regain our right to carry and get rid of the controlling influence of this creeping tyranny we have.

    yes Homosexuality is a sin, but it is divine recompense for Idolatry and it's a double whammy as they call it, he is saying OPk you want to live in sins IE Idolatry, then I will give you sins. Read Romans one carefully and you can see where it begins and the results, Paul even lists other sins that come after the homosexuality.
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    It is a piling on of consequences, just like a prosecutor who piles on many charges when you do one wrong act, you wind up with many charges. same principle.


    We need to return to our roots as a Nation or become extinct soon as a FREE people.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Ignoring the origins of this right, and the origins of government is only seeing part of the story. You cannot fully understand rights without understanding how those rights came to be.

    This previous conversation is directly related to the cite you brought up.

    11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.
    Exactly it is a demonstration of cause and effect.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  25. #25
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    Absolutely, bailenforcer, I couldnt agree more.

    If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, andturn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.






    11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

    All we were doing is following rule #7


    7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.





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