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Thread: Nissan Pavillion in Bristow

  1. #1
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    I know it has a company name to it, but was it built with tax dollars and partially owned by the local gov.?

    There isan Iron Maiden concert I want to attend, and was wondering if carry there was OK.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Private.. and for the record.. it has a new sponsor so it is now the Jiffy Lube Pavillion.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Is re-entry allowed?
    Generally, re-entry to the venue after exiting is not permitted. For special circumstances, please visit a Guest Services representative.


    Can I smoke inside the venue?
    Smoking is not permitted in the reserved seating area.


    What can I bring?
    -Small purses / bags (12 inches x12 inches or smaller) / backpacks
    -One sealed bottle of water, 32oz bottles or less!
    -Small, personal (tote-type) umbrellas
    -Blankets
    -Binoculars
    -Personal lawn chairs - seat must be no higher than 9 inches off the ground
    -Limited food is now allowed into the venue. Food can be stored in a one-gallon clear plastic bag, limit one per person.

    Note: These guidelines are subject to change. Inspections: Guests are subject to bag searches and various levels of screening subject to artist or management discretion. Photography: Camera policy is decided per artists’ request. Please check back closer to the show day for more specific information or call the main office at 703-754-6400. Prohibited Items: -Strollers
    -Beverages (other than one sealed bottled water)
    -Video and Audio recorders
    -Professional cameras. No detachable lenses.
    (Non-professional cameras are allowed, per artists’ request on a show to show basis)
    -Sharp objects/weapons
    -No alcohol consumption in the parking lots
    -No barbeque fires in the parking lot
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    ed wrote:
    Prohibited Items:
    -Sharp objects/weapons
    One could argue that this can be read to mean "no sharp objects or sharp weapons." I don't really doubt their actualintentions here, but, compared to most other gun-banning places, the language hereseems pretty weak.It doesn't actually say anything specificallyabout guns orfirearms. The rule only says "weapons," and many will argue that a sidearm is a tool that only becomes a weapon when used offensively.

    How you treat such a place is up to each individual. 1. You cango ahead and disarm and give your money to people who ban guns. 2. You candefy the rules of a private property owner, say armed, and run the risk of being asked to leave or being banned and still give or money to people who ban guns. 3. You can keep or guns and money and go elsewhere for entertainment. or 4. You can believe that they do not in fact ban legally carried firearms at all;so you can spend your money and enjoy your day, while armed, and with a clean conscience.

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    unlike some private places that ban guns and have no means whatsoever to protect their clientele , a concert at the newly named Jiffy Lube Live is crawling with EMT's and police, both in uniform and undercover. I know some of you guys love to carry absolutely everywhere, but i think it'll be ok for you to not carry to go see a concert at Jiffy Lube Live.

    (ps- "Jiffy Lube Live" For The Loss... what a crappy name for a concert venue)

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    PeteXD wrote:
    unlike some private places that ban guns and have no means whatsoever to protect their clientele
    Guess what? The police that are there aren't there to protect you, they are there to arrest people after the fact. And those EMTs? I'd rather not require their services to begin with.


    PeteXD wrote:
    I know some of you guys love to carry absolutely everywhere,
    Actually I don't "love to carry" a gun everywhere. I do it because I hope I never need it. The time I don't carry a gun is probably going to be the time I wish I had it.

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    nova wrote:
    PeteXD wrote:
    unlike some private places that ban guns and have no means whatsoever to protect their clientele
    Guess what? The police that are there aren't there to protect you, they are there to arrest people after the fact. And those EMTs? I'd rather not require their services to begin with.


    PeteXD wrote:
    I know some of you guys love to carry absolutely everywhere,
    Actually I don't "love to carry" a gun everywhere. I do it because I hope I never need it. The time I don't carry a gun is probably going to be the time I wish I had it.
    Police don't protect? Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't our prisons overflowing with violent criminals? Who put them there? They never catch people before they commit crimes? Of course police do. More specifically, they won't stop someone in that venue that exhibits violent behavior? Alcohol and drugs are always flowing at concerts.

    Guns in that venue are not as valuable as you think. Do you think you would take a shot at someone there? Doubtful. Thousands of people around and beyond your target. I could see why a venue such as that would ban weapons, especially for those who aren't trained and experienced in those type of situations. A taser/oc spray are much better weapons for a concert.

    Now going after EMT's? So if you have a heart attack or break your legs, you would rather not ask for their help? Who are you going to rely on? You can see from the Target abduction (eventually ruled no abduction) video that people don't care about others.


    I believe the poster stated that "SOME OF YOU", so he was not implying everyone loves to carry everywhere. He is entitled to his opinion, as are you (I'm not personally attacking you, just stating my own opinion on your post).

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    nova wrote:
    PeteXD wrote:
    unlike some private places that ban guns and have no means whatsoever to protect their clientele
    Guess what? The police that are there aren't there to protect you, they are there to arrest people after the fact. And those EMTs? I'd rather not require their services to begin with.


    PeteXD wrote:
    I know some of you guys love to carry absolutely everywhere,
    Actually I don't "love to carry" a gun everywhere. I do it because I hope I never need it. The time I don't carry a gun is probably going to be the time I wish I had it.
    Police don't protect? Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't our prisons overflowing with violent criminals? Who put them there? They never catch people before they commit crimes? Of course police do. More specifically, they won't stop someone in that venue that exhibits violent behavior? Alcohol and drugs are always flowing at concerts.

    Guns in that venue are not as valuable as you think. Do you think you would take a shot at someone there? Doubtful. Thousands of people around and beyond your target. I could see why a venue such as that would ban weapons, especially for those who aren't trained and experienced in those type of situations. A taser/oc spray are much better weapons for a concert.

    Now going after EMT's? So if you have a heart attack or break your legs, you would rather not ask for their help? Who are you going to rely on? You can see from the Target abduction (eventually ruled no abduction) video that people don't care about others.


    I believe the poster stated that "SOME OF YOU", so he was not implying everyone loves to carry everywhere. He is entitled to his opinion, as are you (I'm not personally attacking you, just stating my own opinion on your post).

    It has been established many times even by SCOTUS that law enforcement have no duty to protect individuals. Criminals can't be arrested unless they committed or were about to commit a crime.

    And I wasn't criticizing EMTs. I don't see why you thought I was. I simply said I'd rather not require their services to begin with. Who would WANT to need the services of an EMT? I have a few friends who are EMTs and FFX F&R have done a great job of keeping my father alive several times over the past 20 years.

    And if firearms are so useless, why do LEOs not disarm too? Would they "take the shot" in a crowded place? If not, Do they not disarm simply because they just carry everywhere they go so they always know they have it if they need it? (because that's why I do)

    eta: I try to avoid places like this (crowded venues with alcohol/drugs) altogether if I can.

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    PeteXD wrote:
    ...I know some of you guys love to carry absolutely everywhere, but i think it'll be ok for you to not carry to go see a concert at Jiffy Lube Live...
    So,you support policies that require leaving it in the vehicle where it could be stolen, or that require us to not carry at all as we travel to and from the pavillion (including wherever we may be before and after the show)?

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Police don't protect? Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't our prisons overflowing with violent criminals? Who put them there? They never catch people before they commit crimes? Of course police do.
    I think you've talked yourself into a corner. I don't think you can actually put someone in prison before they commit a crime. You can put someone in prison before they commit all the crimes they might have planned to commit, but I don't think it would work out so well if you actually put someone in prison before they committed any crimes at all.

    I realize that in some cases, planning to commit a crime may be a crime itself, but there you go, that means you have committed a crime before you go to prison.

    The whole controversy surrounds that brief instant in time where a non-criminal becomes a criminal. That is where police officers cannot always be, and where by definition, they cannot protect the law abiding citizen (because prior to that instant, there is no criminal from which to be protected), and that leaves self-defense at that instant the only realistic option.

    TFred

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    Talked myself into a corner? Ever hear of attempted robbery or conspiracy? Or Attempted larceny? Attempted is the same punishment as if it were committed. Conspiracy carries great penalties as well. You are right, there are times when people are caught doing things or stopped by LEO's before they commit a crime. Maybe they are documented and let go (since the P.C. wasn't reached) but it still deterred the crime from occurring and now they are documented. Obviously I am pro LEO, although I don't always support everything that is LEO related.

    Why do LEO's have guns there? I didn't say guns were completely useless, I just stated they aren't very valuable there. Of course in the most extreme situations (active shooter etc) or where a clear shot can be taken, then obviously someone will take the shot.

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Talked myself into a corner? Ever hear of attempted robbery or conspiracy? Or Attempted larceny? Attempted is the same punishment as if it were committed. Conspiracy carries great penalties as well. You are right, there are times when people are caught doing things or stopped by LEO's before they commit a crime. Maybe they are documented and let go (since the P.C. wasn't reached) but it still deterred the crime from occurring and now they are documented. Obviously I am pro LEO, although I don't always support everything that is LEO related.

    Why do LEO's have guns there? I didn't say guns were completely useless, I just stated they aren't very valuable there. Of course in the most extreme situations (active shooter etc) or where a clear shot can be taken, then obviously someone will take the shot.
    Yes someone will take the shot, MANY of us lowly citizens have trained and train to be decent shots. I would saythat most civilian shooters are probably better shots than LEO's for the most part. Ipractice once a week, with rifle and pistol, not including dry fires and holster draws from OC and CC positions.

    And you?

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Talked myself into a corner? Ever hear of attempted robbery or conspiracy? Or Attempted larceny? Attempted is the same punishment as if it were committed. Conspiracy carries great penalties as well. You are right, there are times when people are caught doing things or stopped by LEO's before they commit a crime. Maybe they are documented and let go (since the P.C. wasn't reached) but it still deterred the crime from occurring and now they are documented. Obviously I am pro LEO, although I don't always support everything that is LEO related.
    You missed my point completely. I don't intend to sound condescending, but maybe you should read my post again. My point is that before a person commits a crime, they are not a criminal. You can no more defend the public against that person than you can arrest someone for open carry (in Virginia) because they might shoot someone.

    I did address planning to commit a crime in my post (emphasis added in the quote, not the original):

    I realize that in some cases, planning to commit a crime may be a crime itself, but there you go, that means you have committed a crime before you go to prison.
    In fact, I would submit that if the presence of a LEO does actually prevent someone from committing a crime, by definition, nobody other than that thwarted criminal and their co-conspirators would ever know it. (If I must spell it out, in the case that the LEO does find out about a plan, then there is conspiracy, etc, and thus, that crime was not prevented, but rather discovered, and brought to justice.)

    Once the LEO finds out about it, a crime has already been committed (that's where the conspiracy comes in). That process may stop some associated planned crimes (the fruition of the conspiracy), but until we start reading minds a la Minority Report, individual self-defense will always be the first line.

    TFred


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    In all my years as a LEO I can count on the fingers of one hand when I actually protected a victim from a violent crime in progress. Much more frequently (usually)I arrived after the fact and took a report and investigated. Somewhat more frequently I have had opportunities to stop property crimes in progress and arrest individuals for victimless violations of the law, whichlikely prevented future crimes. The point is that whenI was one of 4 or 5 officers covering60 square miles and "protecting" 30,000 people, I always felt better when a citizen could protect themselves. I can't remember a single time when a legally armed citizen acted carelessly and shot an innocent bystander, but I can remember plenty of situations where people died, got injured, raped, etc. because they had no means to protect themselves against violent criminals. I am very much pro-LEO, but I am also a realist.

    The Nissan Pavillion presents a set of unique challenges for correctly deploying a firearm, but it doesn't mean that carrying there is not a good idea. I would say that training and good decision making are critical. Having additional tools like a tazer and/or peper sprayis all right for people with gun belts, but ifI could only have one thing in addition to my hands, it would be a gun.

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    Pagan wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Talked myself into a corner? Ever hear of attempted robbery or conspiracy? Or Attempted larceny? Attempted is the same punishment as if it were committed. Conspiracy carries great penalties as well. You are right, there are times when people are caught doing things or stopped by LEO's before they commit a crime. Maybe they are documented and let go (since the P.C. wasn't reached) but it still deterred the crime from occurring and now they are documented. Obviously I am pro LEO, although I don't always support everything that is LEO related.

    Why do LEO's have guns there? I didn't say guns were completely useless, I just stated they aren't very valuable there. Of course in the most extreme situations (active shooter etc) or where a clear shot can be taken, then obviously someone will take the shot.
    Yes someone will take the shot, MANY of us lowly citizens have trained and train to be decent shots. I would saythat most civilian shooters are probably better shots than LEO's for the most part. Ipractice once a week, with rifle and pistol, not including dry fires and holster draws from OC and CC positions.

    And you?
    I don't consider ANYONE as being a "lowly citizen", and don't consider myself above ANYONE. I do believe LEOs have training and experience that gives them an edge in situations (just like an EMT may have an edge for someone having a heart attack). So you believe you are better than LEO? You shoot once a week? HAHA. So how many situations/encounters have you had where you have been to violent domestics where you had to kick in a door and walk in? How many times have you encountered someone with a gun/knife? How many groups of shady people have you walked up to in a dark alley at 3 am by yourself? How much senario based training have you undergone? Airsoft and simunition? I'm just curious. Going shooting at the range a few times a week and being a "good shot" does not qualify you as being competent for handling situations you are speaking about. I'm not saying that LEOs are superior to anyone else, but just with the experience of dealing with such violent situations and training does give them the edge.

    Me? So you want to know my personal qualifications? Ok, well just to summarize myself briefly.... I have been shooting guns (long guns/handgun/all sorts) since I was about 7. My family members have been members of a shooting club/range for as long as I can remember. I got my first handgun as a bday gift when I was 21. I use to go to the range between 2-5 times a week. Now I still go to the range frequently, but don't have the time to make it as much as I use to. I was hired as a LEO and went through strict firearms training along with legal training. Not just shooting at moving targets, but using simunition/airsoft during senarios. For example.. traffic stops, school shooters, consensual encounters, etc. You actually get shot... and it hurts! Not every senario dictates pulling your gun or firing it, it's apart of the training and decision making. Trust me.. shooting at someone when your heart is pounding and they are shooting back is NOTHING like shooting at a target. My department continues that senario training every month or so. I have undergone training with simunition where i had headgear on and had someone starts off on top of me punching me in the face, going after my gun, not holding back at all. I practice drawing before work everyday. I have to qualify every 6 months in my long gun and hand gun. Besides the strenuous LEO training I had (after a strict hiring process), I have a bachelor's degree from a state university. I have previous experience in L.E, 9-1-1 dispatching, and corrections.

    Besides the continuing training involving firearms, I have been in situations that I could have used a firearm or other force....and have. Getting a call for a shooting in progress no longer makes me nervous, it's almost routine (i still use safety techniques of course), but since I have been in so many calls involving violent weapons, I can think clearly and have learned from my previous situations.

    With all this said, I once again state that I don't think LEOs are better than anyone else. I am merely stating why I believe LEOs are considered more qualified to be involved in situations where deadly force should be used (not saying it should be illegal for others to carry weapons/use force).

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    gis wrote:
    In all my years as a LEO I can count on the fingers of one hand when I actually protected a victim from a violent crime in progress. Much more frequently (usually)I arrived after the fact and took a report and investigated. Somewhat more frequently I have had opportunities to stop property crimes in progress and arrest individuals for victimless violations of the law, whichlikely prevented future crimes. The point is that whenI was one of 4 or 5 officers covering60 square miles and "protecting" 30,000 people, I always felt better when a citizen could protect themselves. I can't remember a single time when a legally armed citizen acted carelessly and shot an innocent bystander, but I can remember plenty of situations where people died, got injured, raped, etc. because they had no means to protect themselves against violent criminals. I am very much pro-LEO, but I am also a realist.

    The Nissan Pavillion presents a set of unique challenges for correctly deploying a firearm, but it doesn't mean that carrying there is not a good idea. I would say that training and good decision making are critical. Having additional tools like a tazer and/or peper sprayis all right for people with gun belts, but ifI could only have one thing in addition to my hands, it would be a gun.
    I guess it depends on the jurisdiction, but I don't completely share your views on proactive policing. Maybe you were a daylight officer? No disrespect, but I know my squad works hard to stop people from committing crimes and we do. I also agree that I feel good for citizens who can protect themselves. I am not against citizens carrying guns, I am much for that. Of course tazers/o.c. are good tools, but ultimately, a gun is the most powerful item out there for protection. Stay safe out there man.

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    TFred wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Talked myself into a corner? Ever hear of attempted robbery or conspiracy? Or Attempted larceny? Attempted is the same punishment as if it were committed. Conspiracy carries great penalties as well. You are right, there are times when people are caught doing things or stopped by LEO's before they commit a crime. Maybe they are documented and let go (since the P.C. wasn't reached) but it still deterred the crime from occurring and now they are documented. Obviously I am pro LEO, although I don't always support everything that is LEO related.
    You missed my point completely. I don't intend to sound condescending, but maybe you should read my post again. My point is that before a person commits a crime, they are not a criminal. You can no more defend the public against that person than you can arrest someone for open carry (in Virginia) because they might shoot someone.

    I did address planning to commit a crime in my post (emphasis added in the quote, not the original):

    I realize that in some cases, planning to commit a crime may be a crime itself, but there you go, that means you have committed a crime before you go to prison.
    In fact, I would submit that if the presence of a LEO does actually prevent someone from committing a crime, by definition, nobody other than that thwarted criminal and their co-conspirators would ever know it. (If I must spell it out, in the case that the LEO does find out about a plan, then there is conspiracy, etc, and thus, that crime was not prevented, but rather discovered, and brought to justice.)

    Once the LEO finds out about it, a crime has already been committed (that's where the conspiracy comes in). That process may stop some associated planned crimes (the fruition of the conspiracy), but until we start reading minds a la Minority Report, individual self-defense will always be the first line.

    TFred
    TFred, I understand what you are saying. I guess it's up to you what you believe is someone who is a criminal. Legally speaking, someone needs to commit the crime/attempt/conspire to commit a crime to be considered a criminal. However, I believe people who have that intention who don't legally evolve to that point of legal determination, should still be considered criminal.

    I disagree with you about the conspiracy part. The crime does not need to be committed for conspiracy to be determined. In fact, it's the opposite. Conspiracy is before a crime is committed. Hence the wording...to conspire to commit a crime. If a crime is already committed, then obviously the people will just be charged with committing the crime.

    PS. I wish we could read people's minds...well... maybe some people.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    I disagree with you about the conspiracy part. The crime does not need to be committed for conspiracy to be determined. In fact, it's the opposite. Conspiracy is before a crime is committed. Hence the wording...to conspire to commit a crime. If a crime is already committed, then obviously the people will just be charged with committing the crime.
    We must be speaking different dialects. This is now the third time I've tried to say the exact same thing.

    If it is illegal to conspire to commit a crime, then by definition, to conspire to commit a crime is also a crime. Just not the same crime that the criminal was conspiring to commit.

    In real world terms, if I plan to steal a bunch of jewelry, and I construct an elaborate plan to defeat alarms, ingress, defeat safes, collect the merchandise, egress, escape, then to stash and sell the stolen items, but one of my nosy neighbors discovers and rats me out before the actual theft, I assume I could be charged with conspiring to ... whatever the crime name would be. But I couldn't be charged with actually committing that crime.

    I'm still a criminal. Even though I didn't commit the crime that I was planning.

    I thought I was a decent writer... :?

    TFred

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    umm.. ok.. Jiffy Lube Live Pavillion...
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  20. #20
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    gis wrote:
    In all my years as a LEO I can count on the fingers of one hand when I actually protected a victim from a violent crime in progress. Much more frequently (usually)I arrived after the fact and took a report and investigated. Somewhat more frequently I have had opportunities to stop property crimes in progress and arrest individuals for victimless violations of the law, whichlikely prevented future crimes. The point is that whenI was one of 4 or 5 officers covering60 square miles and "protecting" 30,000 people, I always felt better when a citizen could protect themselves. I can't remember a single time when a legally armed citizen acted carelessly and shot an innocent bystander, but I can remember plenty of situations where people died, got injured, raped, etc. because they had no means to protect themselves against violent criminals. I am very much pro-LEO, but I am also a realist.

    The Nissan Pavillion presents a set of unique challenges for correctly deploying a firearm, but it doesn't mean that carrying there is not a good idea. I would say that training and good decision making are critical. Having additional tools like a tazer and/or peper sprayis all right for people with gun belts, but ifI could only have one thing in addition to my hands, it would be a gun.
    I guess it depends on the jurisdiction, but I don't completely share your views on proactive policing. Maybe you were a daylight officer? No disrespect, but I know my squad works hard to stop people from committing crimes and we do. I also agree that I feel good for citizens who can protect themselves. I am not against citizens carrying guns, I am much for that. Of course tazers/o.c. are good tools, but ultimately, a gun is the most powerful item out there for protection. Stay safe out there man.
    I think that it all comes down to resources. I am very much for proactive policing, but when you have 4-5 officers working per shift (less if someone is sick, hurt or on vacation), you are usually "firefighting", rather than being proactive. Between taking reports, writing reports, court time, investigations, and other administrative duties, I probably spent less than half of my time on the road. If you subtract traffic enforcement, crashes, and other nonesense calls, less than 10% was actually spent on proactive policing. In the midwest where you have a lot of small police departments and many turf battles this is very typical. I noticed that in Virginia police departments are typically staffed better. However, an officer can't be expected to be everywhere there is trouble. I am very much in favor of every citizen taking the primary responsibility for their own protection. If an officer is there, that can be thought of as an added bonus. Stay safe as well.

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