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Thread: OC incident in KC

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    Well, as promised, here is a quick (maybe) account of my recent negative LEO encounter in KC.

    First, let me start by saying that I have been OC'ing in the KC area for a couple of months, including Raytown, Lees Summit, Olathe and Shawnee Mission and, of course, KC, Mo where I live. I have seen dozens of officers in KC and they have always been polite, respectful and basically just looked me over and continue on their way. One LEO at a Quik Trip on 87th street even called me, "The smartest customer I have ever seen in this store."

    But Sunday afternoon as I was purchasing a fountain drink at the same Quik Trip I frequent every day on my way to work, I observed and was observed by a KCMO police officer named Cronkite. As it turns out, he is a LONG time resident of the area. He came over to me with a quizzical look in his eye and a slight disapproving frown. He ran his finger across the logo on my polo shirt and asked if I was some kind of security. I stepped away from his hand and held my hand up and said "Excuse me, no I am not". Now, remember this is my FIRST negative encounter so I did feel slightly intimidated not knowing how one of these encounters might go. He said. "Why are you carrying a weapon, " to which I replied, "Because I want to. It is my right." Not like a smartass, just a statement of fact with a slight grin. The furrow in his brows deepened and he said, "So it is an open carry thing then," suggesting to me that he had already had these types of encounters. He asked me to step over to the hot dog counter and said demandingly, "Let me see your ID." I replied, "Since I am not fully versed in the ID laws of Missouri and KC, I feel compelled to comply," and I gave him my driver's license. He wrote down my name, license number, description and called in a "warrants" check. Then he asked, "Why do you feel the need to be armed?" I was tempted to ask him the same, but instead I said, "It is a dangerous world." He said, "What makes you think that your weapon would be of any use during some type of assault." I countered with, "How about you tell me of ONE incident where an OC carrier was the victim or perpetrator of a crime. If you can cite ONE case, I will stop carrying in your precinct." He just stared at me as if to say, "You are such an incredible moron." Then he said something to the effect that he knew that while it was legal to OC, it was unnecessary and dangerous and he did not like it. We then started to discuss state and city code and looked extremely surprised as I began to quote Article 8 Section 50-261 of the city municipal code that describes illegal weapons use. After I broke down all of the specifics, while smiling I might add (remember to smile or you might get arrested for being armed and angry), I asked if he thought I had committed or was about to commit a crime. He said no, so I asked if I could go. He said no. I asked if I was under arrest and he said no so I told him I needed to leave, I had to be somewhere. He said he was not done questioning me. I asked why he needed to question me if I was not under suspicion. He said he was not sure if it was safe for him or the other customers for me to be in there armed. I told he had probably never been safer and that my presence was a huge benefit to all in the area, regardless of their comfort level or his. He asked me if I even knew how to handle a weapon to which I replied that I probably had more weapons training, safety classes, personal combat skills training and urban warfare training than he did, with a smile and a chuckle. "And probably a better shot, too", I kidded him. (I qualified Expert on pistol, rifle and grenade in the Army). He still would not lighten up. Guess I should not have compared my experience to his

    When dispatch had finished running my warrants check, he relaxed a little but still kept that "You are a crazy white boy" look on his face. I also let him know that I planned on educating as much of the public as possible and that I intended to encourage every citizen that made inquiries of my OC to do the same after proper weapons and safety training. He stated flatly that that was "just a stupid thing to do." I said he should get used to seeing OC because it will probably increase in the near future and that, although he does not like it personally, he might learn to appreciate it as crime rates begin to slip. He thought that unlikely but said I could leave.

    I have forgotten a few details that I shared with one other forum member and the order of events is not exact. The main thing about the encounter that stands out in my mind was his disdain of me, his attitude of superiority, as if civilians cannot be trusted with guns in public. Oh, I should mention that one of my knees started shaking a little but he could not see it behind the counter that separated us. But as I asserted myself and began to quote law, my confidence grew and my trepidation eased slightly. In fact, I look forward to the next encounter. I think Officer Cronkite may have been educated just a little and perhaps his attitude will soften as he realizes that we are all on the same side and are actually beneficial to the community. Maybe...

    BTW, probably just coincidence but he is the first African-American officer I have encountered in a neighborhood that is predominantly (90+%) African-American.

    Conversely, I met 2 wonderful Walmart employees yesterday (both middle age African-American women) who were VERY interested in my wife (who was OCing) and I (also OCing) as we shopped at Walmart in Raytown. The conversation ended with the woman greeting at the door promising to visit the Bullethole to practice shooting rented guns and planning to go to the gun show in June I will be following up with her as I see her semi-regularly.

    Anyway, more to come WHEN I have my next negative encounter. I will probably video record it to better capture the details and post it on youtube. I might even U-Stream it as this gets it on the internet AS it is happening in case he decides to shut me down and/or take my phone.

    Til next time...

    Peter
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    So you weren't being detained, and yet you were not free to leave? No suspicion of a crime and yet he ran a warrants check on you? Maybe it's just me but it sounds like that officer needs to be educated as it sounds like he violated your rights. Others on this forum with more experience can comment, but if he did you should file a complaint.

    Good job knowing the laws and keeping your cool.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8XwehIHSnQ

    LOL... this vid by antiterrorist describes and demonstrates the officer's response to my quote of the code "a dog's response to a new card trick"... head tilting to the side in confusion.... lol . GREAT VID, everyone should see it.
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    amclint wrote:
    So you weren't being detained, and yet you were not free to leave? No suspicion of a crime and yet he ran a warrants check on you? Maybe it's just me but it sounds like that officer needs to be educated as it sounds like he violated your rights. Others on this forum with more experience can comment, but if he did you should file a complaint.

    Good job knowing the laws and keeping your cool.
    Actually, I talked too much. I may consider risking arrest next time by being the question asker, asserting my rights and not answering any questions unless I am actually being arrested for suspicion of a crime. Even then, silence is safest...
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    Ever consider packing a small inconspicuous digital voice recorder along with your weapon?

    These things come in very handy when officers are stomping all over your rights.

    Either you are free to go, or you are not. If you are not, you are being detained, and an officer IS REQUIRED to inform you of REASONABLE ARTICULABLE SUSPICION that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed. If he can not do so, yet still detains you, it's his a$$ for violating your constitutional rights.

    This is where the recorder comes in handy.

    Great job, by the way. I've had several "encounters". None of which were even as bad as yours, yet my knees were a little wobbly as well. I know it's very hard to keep the "adrenaline rush" down because even though it isn't "violent" you are still in a confrontation.

    If people react in similar manners, I'm sure you're kicking yourself going over things you could have done or said differently. I know I did for quite some time.

    Resist the urge to think, "Man! Why didn't I just......."

    You performed remarkably well under pressure. Use your "Man! Why didn't I just....." to be better prepared for the next time. Look at it this way:

    Every negative encounter is the greatest training opportunity to react stronger, more knowledgeable, and better prepared for the next one.



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    I am actually trying to decide whether to record high quality to my phone or U-Stream lower quality direct to the internet (I have an IPhone). Direct stream guarantees that the video/audio goes straight to the internet, even if I lost my phone (or it was taken) but at a loss of quality... I will record first I think in high quality as I think it unlikely that my phone will be taken and I think I should set the lock, just to protect the data... but I actually look forward to the next one
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    peterarthur wrote:
    ... but I actually look forward to the next one
    Even as a person that has had several of these LEO interactions. I do not look forward to them. It doesn't take but a LEO who has no respect for what the law is to cause you allot of time and aggravation. I would suggesthavinga well thought out plan of action for the possibility of your next LEO interaction. If you have one already I would be interested in hearing it. Just be prepared for the forum to have an opinion on your actions.

    Doc

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    I know how you feel peter.

    After my last LEO encounter, there are things I wished I would have done differently and would have liked a second go around to make up for it. Then again, I also remember the bad feeling the resonated afterwards and I don't look forward to feeling that again either. I resisted the intimidation and misrepresentation given to me but I also felt wronged by the whole ordeal. I also had a little guilt knowing that I could have avoided the hassle if I just played the game and curtailed my stubborness in asserting my rights. Still though, the ordeal as well as reading other people's experiences, does help to boost my confidence a little higher than it may have been several months ago. Hopefully, it won't be as intimidating next time.

    Lastsaturday I was in a parking lot near a creek with my 3 year old unpacking a canoe and a LEO drove up and stopped and stared at me, and I thought, Oh brother I really don't want to deal with this right now. I want to enjoy the afternoon with my daughter but I also am not going to let anyone walk right over me like they own me either (at least not easily and without questioning it). Then he pulled up to two other parked cars and sat there for awhile, probably ran their plates but left me completely alone.

    I don't mind the criticism or people pointing out things and talking about them. Hearing different views and ideasmay help you to learn and prepare. If people didn't share their ideas, critical or supportive, it would be alot tougher for some of us to learn how to handle these encounters. You sharing your unique experience is helpful to some of us no matter how it turns out and I personally appreciate your willingness to share your personal event.



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    I look forward to it because it feels good to be able to assert my rights, even if I get grief for it. I feel less like a slave when an LEO is unable to have his way with me entirely. My encounter had moments where I was pushed around a little but overall I felt I felt I held my own. I look forward to being the questioner next time and terminating the conversation when I want to... and I am prepared to be detained or even arrested, if necessary, to assert that right. I thought long and hard about it and you should be prepared to be arrested and detained overnight if something goes terribly wrong. It has happened to a few people who did NOTHING wrong, so keep that in mind. Or they might find some technicality like you are carrying near some government building or school without knowing it. These unfortunate situations are bound to pop up at the beginning of a an unpopular movement like this. But I am watching Antiterrorist on youtube and he has a ton of great info...

    Now it's time to OC into Raytown Walmart to get some fishy crackers
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    I oc in kc every day. Two weeks ago i was questioned twice in one day by kcpd officers about what i was doing and why i was carrying. Both times were very good exchanges. Considering the first encounter was after they were called when someone saw me climbing thru the window of a house i think things went very well, lol. The other was while i was on the sidewalk photographing a house. Both houses were not in the best of neighborhoods. Part of the work i am doing is inspecting vacant houses that were foreclosed on by a bank....but they aren't always vacant. I never know who may b lurking inside and this explanation was good enough for both officers that day. I did inform them that i oc any time i can do so legally and they were fine with it. Its odd the different responses u can get from a department that should all b on the same page tho.

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    glockdnloaded wrote:
    ... Part of the work i am doing is inspecting vacant houses that were foreclosed on by a bank....but they aren't always vacant. I never know who may b lurking inside ...
    Now THERE's a reason to carry
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    Yeah, people seem to understand that reason! Never know when u will run across squatters or crack/meth/wet heads.

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    yet they fail to recognize that just walking down the street can be dangerous as well... amazing.
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    It APPEARS that you must be under ARREST to be required to ID??? Did I read this right?
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0840000710.HTM
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    Missouri Revised StatutesChapter 84
    Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    Section 84.710

    August 28, 2009



    Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City).
    84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.
    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest.
    3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

    ************************************************** **********

    You don't have to carry ID....look at what is in bold, that is where this statue is in effect (KC and St. Louis jurisdictions only) and what info you would have to give, but it doesn't say produce ID.

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    Good point, thanks for the clarification...
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    dang. the cop should have put in for overtime, had you clock in and out of his bid to discourage and embarrass you.

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    Shawn wrote:
    Missouri Revised StatutesChapter 84
    Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    Section 84.710

    August 28, 2009



    Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City).
    84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.
    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest.
    3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

    ************************************************** **********

    You don't have to carry ID....look at what is in bold, that is where this statue is in effect (KC and St. Louis jurisdictions only) and what info you would have to give, but it doesn't say produce ID.

    I just add emphasis on the highlighted portion above.

    Think Terry v. Ohio. Absent valid RAS you are free to ignore their request for identifying information and walk away.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Shawn wrote:
    Missouri Revised StatutesChapter 84
    Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    Section 84.710

    August 28, 2009



    Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City).
    84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.
    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest.
    3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

    ************************************************** **********

    You don't have to carry ID....look at what is in bold, that is where this statue is in effect (KC and St. Louis jurisdictions only) and what info you would have to give, but it doesn't say produce ID.

    I just add emphasis on the highlighted portion above.

    Think Terry v. Ohio. Absent valid RAS you are free to ignore their request for identifying information and walk away.
    Don't be so naive. The law may be written that way, but trust me, you have a good chance of getting locked up.

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    cash50 wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    Shawn wrote:
    Missouri Revised StatutesChapter 84
    Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City
    Section 84.710

    August 28, 2009



    Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City).
    84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.
    2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest.
    3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

    ************************************************** **********

    You don't have to carry ID....look at what is in bold, that is where this statue is in effect (KC and St. Louis jurisdictions only) and what info you would have to give, but it doesn't say produce ID.

    I just add emphasis on the highlighted portion above.

    Think Terry v. Ohio. Absent valid RAS you are free to ignore their request for identifying information and walk away.
    Don't be so naive. The law may be written that way, but trust me, you have a good chance of getting locked up.
    I'm no more Naive than SCOTUS, upon whose decision I base my assertion.

    See also my post in the Nevada forum.

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    Very typical of my encounters while OC.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    It APPEARS that you must be under ARREST to be required to ID??? Did I read this right?
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0840000710.HTM
    That assumption would be false. Reading the law as it is written on the link, states that an Officer has the right to detain you if he or she reasonably believes that you have or will commit a crime. The key words there (Reasonably believes) or reasonable suspicion. If an officer can articulate a crime is or will be commited he can detain and assertain your informaiton. And you have to give it. Remember it is not what you think it is what he thinks. There are millions of laws that you will never ever think to know that you can and will be detained for. So don't get too cocky around officers. They may have moments. But, if they know their job, they will find someway of getting you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waveceptor View Post
    That assumption would be false. Reading the law as it is written on the link, states that an Officer has the right to detain you if he or she reasonably believes that you have or will commit a crime. The key words there (Reasonably believes) or reasonable suspicion. If an officer can articulate a crime is or will be commited he can detain and assertain your informaiton. And you have to give it. Remember it is not what you think it is what he thinks. There are millions of laws that you will never ever think to know that you can and will be detained for. So don't get too cocky around officers. They may have moments. But, if they know their job, they will find someway of getting you.
    You may be right, but if they know their job, then they will be aware of the laws regarding OC and should not hassle a law abiding citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waveceptor View Post
    That assumption would be false. Reading the law as it is written on the link, states that an Officer has the right to detain you if he or she reasonably believes that you have or will commit a crime. The key words there (Reasonably believes) or reasonable suspicion. If an officer can articulate a crime is or will be commited he can detain and assertain your informaiton. And you have to give it. Remember it is not what you think it is what he thinks. There are millions of laws that you will never ever think to know that you can and will be detained for. So don't get too cocky around officers. They may have moments. But, if they know their job, they will find someway of getting you.
    Key phrase being: "If an officer can articulate..."

    Saying, "I stopped you because you were openly carrying a firearm" in a jurisdiction where OC is lawful is NOT reasonable suspicion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Key phrase being: "If an officer can articulate..."

    Saying, "I stopped you because you were openly carrying a firearm" in a jurisdiction where OC is lawful is NOT reasonable suspicion.
    Precisely. If they can articulate suspicion of a crime, i.e., "A man of your description was reported waving his gun around at the QuikTrip and speaking angrily," or "We had a 211 (armed robbery) down the street and you fit the description of the perp", I am MORE than happy to help out an investigation. I want the police to follow up on leads, make arrests and put bad guys in jail. But if they start blustering about me having to present ID without some legal reason, i.e., articulable suspicion, I will have to take my chances and stand up for my rights, even if I risk arrest or even a beatdown, which is EXTREMELY rare for a law abiding citizen. If I remain civil and polite at all times while firmly asserting my rights (with no attitude), they have no reason or motivation for violating my rights. The people who get into trouble do so because they think that since they have done nothing wrong, they can speak to the LEO in any manner they choose. While the first amndment technically covers this, the penal codes favor the police. If you want respect, give it to the LEO, even if and especially when he does not deserve it. Be the better man and avoid cuffs...

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