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Thread: Torrington Shooting

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    http://www.registercitizen.com/artic...6581291127.txt


    A guy accidentally fires his weapon & gets arrested. At the bond hearing, the judge ordered the shooter to turn over his permit. I suppose a judge has wide latitude on what they canorder as a condition for bond.


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    Q seems like a dumb-ass who probably should not be carrying a pistol in the first place.

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    GoldCoaster wrote:
    Q seems like a dumb-ass who probably should not be carrying a pistol in the first place.
    I have to agree. His story is ridiculous. There is no excuse for his actions.
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    I don't know what happened in this particular incident, only the man with the firearm really knows but accidental discharges can happen by no fault of the gun owner.

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    MK wrote:
    accidental discharges can happen by no fault of the gun owner.
    Oh really? How do you suppose that would happen?
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    one thing i do read into this story is that maybe it wasnt an accident i don't know the size difference between the two men but the story says he was dropping off the victim's GF and the man came running towards his car yelling and screaming maybe he was scared and that is why he fired the weapon the story also tells that the man he fired towards was also arrested that same day for beating that GF
    know back to my size comment know i might be 240 lbs but im only 5'5 and there is a man that i work with know he is the niceset guy i ever met and never had any issues with him but if i ever did his fists are over double mine and would probably kill me with a quick one two like i said before we do get along but if he were to ever charge at me i would probably piss my self if you ever read the book OF MICE AND MEN then you could get an idea of the size issue

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    Rich B wrote:
    MK wrote:
    accidental discharges can happen by no fault of the gun owner.
    Oh really? How do you suppose that would happen?

    It could be an equipment malfunction. Like I said though, I wasn't there and don't know in this particular case but the man says he was loading a round. When I was 15, I had a semi auto shotgun accidentily discharge when I was loading it though nothing touched the trigger, so I've seen it happen first hand myself. Its pretty rare but stuff can and does happen from time to time.


    Here's an article about anincidentinvolving an accidental discharge that happened during a gun rights picnic by an OCDO member who was arrested for it in Michigan.

    http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local..._rights_picnic

    Here's one of the threads about it from their state forum.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/31914.html

    On page 13 of that thread, the man explains what happened involving his accidental discharge.


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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    MK wrote:
    It could be an equipment malfunction.
    An equipment malfunction? What equipment malfunction would cause him to 'load a single round' and pull the trigger?


    Like I said though, I wasn't there and don't know in this particular case but the man says he was loading a round.┬*
    Right, which he should have been doing. That makes this a negligent discharge, not an accidental discharge.

    ┬*┬* When I was 15, I had a semi auto shotgun accidentily discharge when I was loading it though nothing touched the trigger, so I've seen it happen first hand myself.┬*┬* Its pretty rare but stuff can and does happen from time to time.
    These things are not magic. Guns do not just go off by themselves.


    Here's an article about an┬*incident┬*involving an accidental discharge that happened during a gun rights picnic by an OCDO member who was arrested for it in Michigan.
    Right. He was manipulating the firearm. Which he should not have been doing. That is not an 'accidental discharge' it is a negligent discharge.

    This is exactly why I chose to leave Cabelas this weekend rather than allow the manager to manipulate my weapon. People need to learn that guns simply do not go off on their own, a person has to be manipulating it. If it is contained in the holster like it should be there will not be an issue.

    The manager involved even referenced an incident at Bass Pro that he felt showed that open carry is inherently unsafe. This is the article:

    http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/05/...2871274216684/

    Once again. Negligent discharge during the manipulation of a weapon.
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    In the case of my shotgun accident, I was manipulating the shotgun as it is supposed to be manipulated and it fired. It was quite a long time ago andI don't know how this happened, but I do know it wasn't because anything pulled the trigger.

    Mechanisms do malfunction. Cars catch on fire, machinery breaks down, fuses on explosives may not work as intended. There are limitless accounts of mechanisms not working exactly as intended due to a variety of reasons as well as negligent use, maintanance, handling and storage that can be attributed to humans in control of those mechanisms. However, not all of them are due to a handler's negligence.

    In the case of this Torrington man, I don't see where he says that he pulled the trigger. I am not saying that isn't what happened, I just see no written evidence of it so I will leave open the possibility that the discharge was accidental and without negligence.

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    MK wrote:
    In the case of this Torrington man, I don't see where he says that he pulled the trigger.┬*┬* I am not saying that isn't what happened, I just see no written evidence of it so I will leave open the possibility that the discharge was accidental and without negligence.
    It makes no difference whether he pulled the trigger or not (someone sure did). All that matters is he had the firearm out of a holster and was 'loading a single round'. Any time you are manipulating a firearm outside of a holster you are taking a significant responsibility.

    It is clearly negligent (at best, criminal at worst) to have a gun go off in your car when you are 'loading a single round' when involved in what sure appears to be a domestic dispute.
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    This guy is at least 50% crazy for getting himself involved in this situation in the first place! When you bring a woman home to her residence where she apparently lives with her boyfriend who has already been arrested once today (for domestic violence against said woman), maybe you should expect him to approach you with a negative attitude. You should be ready for this and have a plan of action, like not stopping the car! Open the door, push the woman out, accelerate away from the boyfriend. Hey she may get hurt, but at least you'll be okay, after all it's her boyfriend, you didn't pick him, she did! All her fault, save yourself.

    Seriously, this does not sound like an AD. Sounds more like an attempt to injure the boyfriend. I've seen a few AD's at the range, in every case the trigger was pulled when the gun was presumed to be empty, or the weapon was fired before the operator was "ready". These mistakes were the fault of the person operating the gun, but they were surely accidents with no intent to harm. There seems to be some intent here to scare or perhaps harm the onrushing boyfriend.

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    Pulling the trigger on a gun you "think" is empty and it fires is not accidental it is negligent.

    Modern pistols have sears, locks, block plates, two piece triggers and so on to bring the chances of an equipment malfunction caused discharge down to very small percentages.

    If your booger hook is on the trigger and the gun goes off and you didn't intend for it to it's negligent every single time.

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    Argh! Negligent double-post.

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    This is exactly why I chose to leave Cabelas this weekend rather than allow the manager to manipulate my weapon. People need to learn that guns simply do not go off on their own, a person has to be manipulating it. If it is contained in the holster like it should be there will not be an issue.

    The manager involved even referenced an incident at Bass Pro
    Smart move, no doubt about it. I could just imagine a store manager handling a weapon he is unfamiliar with (or just plain being stupid) causing a Negligent Discharge and the bullet hitting someone.

    Guess what, even though it is not your fault, it is your gun that did it. The gun is going into the evidence locker at the local PD.

    Too much potential Bad Ju-Ju!

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    GoldCoaster wrote:
    Q seems like a dumb-ass who probably should not be carrying a pistol in the first place.
    That is the way I felt upon reading the story. Unfortunately you can't fix stupid.

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    JohnO wrote:
    I could just imagine a store manager handling a weapon he is unfamiliar with (or just plain being stupid) causing a Negligent Discharge and the bullet hitting someone.
    Read the article I linked to. This happened.
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    Just a Guy wrote:
    At the bond hearing, the judge ordered the shooter to turn over his permit. I suppose a judge has wide latitude on what they canorder as a condition for bond.
    I don't think that the judge has the power to order the defendant to turn over his permit. Nothwitstanding this lack of power, he can issue any order from on high he wants to. It is up to the defendant to appeal and set it straight.

    Conn. Gen. Stat. ┬ž 29-32: Revocation of permit. Notification. Confiscation. Penalty for failure to surrender permit.(b) Any state permit or temporary state permit for the carrying of any pistol or revolver may be revoked by the Commissioner of Public Safety for cause and shall be revoked by said commissioner upon conviction of the holder of such permit of a felony or of any misdemeanor specified in subsection (b) of section 29-28or upon the occurrence of any event which would have disqualified the holder from being issued the state permit or temporary state permit pursuant to subsection (b) of section 29-28. Upon the revocation of any state permit or temporary state permit, the person whose state permit or temporary state permit is revoked shall be notified in writing and such state permit or temporary state permit shall be forthwith delivered to the commissioner. Any law enforcement authority shall confiscate and immediately forward to the commissioner any state permit or temporary state permit that is illegally possessed by any person. The commissioner may revoke the state permit or temporary state permit based upon the commissioner's own investigation or upon the request of any law enforcement agency. Any person who fails to surrender any permit within five days of notification in writing of revocation thereof shall be guilty of a class C misdemeanor.

    I am looking through the statutes regarding the power of courts to enjoin criminal defendants but do not see anything on point.

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    GunTotingLawyer wrote:
    I don't think that the judge has the power to order the defendant to turn over his permit.┬* Nothwitstanding this lack of power, he can issue any order from on high he wants to.┬* It is up to the defendant to appeal and set it straight.

    Conn. Gen. Stat. ┬ž 29-32: Revocation of permit. Notification. Confiscation. Penalty for failure to surrender permit.(b) Any state permit or temporary state permit for the carrying of any pistol or revolver may be revoked by the Commissioner of Public Safety for cause and shall be revoked by said commissioner upon conviction of the holder of such permit of a felony or of any misdemeanor specified in subsection (b) of section 29-28or upon the occurrence of any event which would have disqualified the holder from being issued the state permit or temporary state permit pursuant to subsection (b) of section 29-28. Upon the revocation of any state permit or temporary state permit, the person whose state permit or temporary state permit is revoked shall be notified in writing and such state permit or temporary state permit shall be forthwith delivered to the commissioner. Any law enforcement authority shall confiscate and immediately forward to the commissioner any state permit or temporary state permit that is illegally possessed by any person. The commissioner may revoke the state permit or temporary state permit based upon the commissioner's own investigation or upon the request of any law enforcement agency. Any person who fails to surrender any permit within five days of notification in writing of revocation thereof shall be guilty of a class C misdemeanor.

    I am looking through the statutes regarding the power of courts to enjoin criminal defendants but do not see anything on point.
    Interesting. I was just about to look this up all over again because I just had a discussion with a Lt on the Wallingford PD. He said they confiscate permits 'all the time', usually in relation to domestic violence and restraining orders.
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    Everyone should expect a video of an accidental discharge to be posted in the near future. FOI from DPS will result in it's release.



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    gutshot wrote:
    This gentleman was unloading his Springfield XD prior to putting it in his car, as is required by state law. How do you think you would have done it legally? Gun carriers in Mi are forced to handle their weapons several times a day because of this stupid law. There will be more incidents like this. The trigger was not pulled and the grip safety was not depressed. A jury found him not guilty. This was a SD, statutory discharge.
    I cannot speak of MI law and it makes no difference to me. Regardless of why you have to handle your firearm, you are responsible for it. The owner claims he did not touch the trigger, but as far as I can see makes no effort to explain how the weapon discharged.

    I am happy his case turned out well, but that is hardly the focus of this thread. The topic of this thread allegedly put himself in a dangerous situation and discharged his firearm when approached by an aggressor.
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    Rich B wrote:
    Interesting. I was just about to look this up all over again because I just had a discussion with a Lt on the Wallingford PD. He said they confiscate permits 'all the time', usually in relation to domestic violence and restraining orders.
    They are breaking the law - plain and simple. Police have no power to take property unless it is evidence.

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    GunTotingLawyer wrote:
    They are breaking the law - plain and simple.┬* Police have no power to take property unless it is evidence.
    That is just another issue to take up with them. This will be interesting. I think the Deputy Chief is tired of seeing me as is, but it sounds like they have a lot of issues they need to correct.
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    Rich B wrote:
    GunTotingLawyer wrote:
    They are breaking the law - plain and simple. Police have no power to take property unless it is evidence.
    That is just another issue to take up with them. This will be interesting. I think the Deputy Chief is tired of seeing me as is, but it sounds like they have a lot of issues they need to correct.

    The Second Circuit Court of Appeals even noticed that only the Commissioner of DPS has the power to revoke a permit, and even then, his actions must comport with constitutional due process. From the recent Kuck case, (Kuck v. Danaher, 600 F.3d 159, 165-66 (2d Cir. 2010)):

    Contrary to defendants' suggestion, the state's ability to regulate firearms does not extinguish the liberty interest at stake or eliminate the need to afford due process. In Connecticut, a permit to carry a firearm may only be revoked by the Commissioner of DPS "for cause," or under certain statutorily enumerated circumstances requiring revocation. Conn. Gen. Stat. ┬ž 29-32(b), (c). Much the same, denial or revocation must be supported on appeal by "just and proper cause." Conn. Gen. Stat. ┬ž 29-32b(b). By contrast to other states' regulatory schemes, the Commissioner does not have unfettered discretion to revoke permits under state law. See Bach v. Pataki, 408 F.3d 75, 80-81 (2d Cir. 2005)(describing the "wide discretion" possessed by licensing officers under New York law).



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    im learning tons on here reading these posts.....alot of things i thought to be true turn out to be false....i have nothing to add, just thought id say thanks!

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    MK wrote:
    Rich B wrote:
    MK wrote:
    accidental discharges can happen by no fault of the gun owner.
    Oh really? How do you suppose that would happen?

    It could be an equipment malfunction.┬*┬* Like I said though, I wasn't there and don't know in this particular case but the man says he was loading a round.┬*┬*┬* When I was 15, I had a semi auto shotgun accidentily discharge when I was loading it though nothing touched the trigger, so I've seen it happen first hand myself.┬*┬* Its pretty rare but stuff can and does happen from time to time.


    Here's an article about an┬*incident┬*involving an accidental discharge that happened during a gun rights picnic by an OCDO member who was arrested for it in Michigan.

    http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local..._rights_picnic

    Here's one of the threads about it from their state forum.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/31914.html

    On page 13 of that thread, the man explains what happened involving his accidental discharge.
    MK you've got a lot to learn. Guns don't just "go off".

    I read your link. The idiot was trying to clear the gun. Guns "just go off" all the time when this happens. Then the gun is tested and found to be fine.

    The idiot should not have been handling his weapon PERIOD. Period period. He was at a picnic, not at a gun range.

    This is one of the pitfalls of OC. Some guy comes up and says "nice gun". Next thing you know that idiot is whipping it out trying to clear it so the other guy can look at it. no No NO .

    Just so you know we are kindof in the same boat. I was once out bird hunting. I loaded my Beretta 687 over/under with a shell after missing a bird. Snapped the gun and BAM. It went off. I was sure that the gun malfunctioned. I knew I hadn't touched the trigger.

    I KNEW I hadn't touched the trigger. So I had the gun inspected. Guess what, there was nothing wrong with the gun. Guess what, Its never done it again in the 15 years since.

    Guess what, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that I caused that gun to go off. There is no other logical conclusion.

    I screwed up and almost killed my dog. I learned from it. I'm better for it.

    99.999% of all ADs are not ADs at all, but NDs or Negligent discharges.

    By the way, the guy in the thread you referenced said this:

    I pulled the mag out and stuck it in my pocket, then pulled the slide back to unload the chamber (with ALL fingers UNDER the trigger gaurd), as the breech opened the gun went off.

    Again, why unload the gun? Leave it in the holster and wear it home. His dad was wearing a loaded glock on the way home so why risk it.

    Also, the fact that he would grip the gun with "all fingers under the trigger guard" tells me he is either a novice or poorly trained. So again, I take that account with a shaker full of salt.

    As for the guy in Torrington. If he tries to get his permit back, please let me know. I'll show up at the BFPE hearing to testify against him. If the story is as reported, he should be let anywhere near a pistol.
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