LOERetired
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As OCers, and as we post on this forum, if this passes we will have to watch what we do and what is said over the internet as an individual and agroup, even gathering at picknic's while ocing could become a red flag to those in power, should theyperceive it as a threat.
I know it seems that one shouldn't be so paranoid, and this bill in its appearance is aimed atterrorist and anti government activities to include verbal and written anti government views in country, out of country and over the internet, but the language is so broad, that itcould allow law enforcement to interpret any written, verbal and gatherering activity as anti government and apply an arrest and detention without probable cause to its own citizens. As a society, with the pasage of this billit is possible we couldbecome afraid of voicing our opinions against government policy, especially when we start to see our next door neighbor disappearing and not returning, could it happen, I wonder!!
For example, look at section (E) below and question its intent, meaning and who it may apply to, if passed:
S. 3081: Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010
Read the entire bill at the link below
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3081
Please read it and ask yourself if there are loopholes or vagueness in the wording.
Such as "(E) Such other matters as the President considers appropriate" It is assumed "hostiles to the United States" implies people connected to Al Qadea: "(9) UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENT.—
22 The term ‘‘unprivileged enemy belligerent’’ means an
23 individual (other than a privileged belligerent) who—
24 (A) has engaged in hostilities against the
25 United States or its coalition partners;1(B) has purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or was a part of al Qaeda at the time of capture." But my question is what is really considered "hostilities against the U.S.? Could it extend as far as anyone who's fed up with the way policy is going and speaking out against it, or trying to get them changed?
This big clincher in the (9) lines 22-25 are written prior:
(3) INAPPLICABILITY OF CERTAIN STATEMENT
6 AND RIGHTS.—A individual who is suspected of
7 being an unprivileged enemy belligerent shall not,
8 during interrogation under this subsection, be pro
9vided the statement required by Miranda v. Arizona
10 (384 U.S. 436 (1966)) or otherwise be informed of
11 any rights that the individual may or may not have
12 to counsel or to remain silent consistent with Mi
13randa v. Arizona.
EVEN ON AMERICAN SOIL! For Shame! Questioning without representation because they "Suspect" a person. Isn't that the same as guilty until proven innocent?
I understand our needing to be protected from those who would harm us, but lets take a look at this a little closer. I read some headlines that stated military was refusing to destroy heroin poppies over seas, due to wanting the people in the poor communities to cooperate with them and Al Qadea telling those people that they would avenge them if such things went on. Yes, the drug poppies fund Al Qadea forces, also heroin is illegal in the U.S. and our leaders have said if a person uses drugs they are funding our enemy. Do you see where this can lead? More overzealous drug laws and enforcements against people who really have no connection with the enemy forces.
I have concerns that it is one more way to erode our constitutional freedoms. Rights that did not say it only applied under specific circumstances, but ones that were inalienable.
S.3081 if passed will frighten Americans from speaking out.
S.3081 is so broadly written, it appears any “individual” who writes on the Internet or verbally express an opinion against or an entity of U.S. Government or its coalition partners might be detained on the basis he or she is an “unprivileged enemy belligerent”, “supporting hostilities against U.S. Government.”
McCain’s bill mentions “non-violent acts" supporting terrorism in the U.S. and or emanating from America against a Coalition Partner. Non-violent terrorist acts" are covered in the Patriot Act to prosecute Persons that support “coercion to influence a government or intimidation to affect a civilian population.” However, U.S. activists and individuals under S.3081 would be much more vulnerable to prosecution, if (charged with suspicion) of “intentionally providing support to an Act of Terrorism”, for example American activists can’t control what other activists might do illegally—they network with domestically and overseas. Under the Patriot Act, law enforcement generally needs probable cause to detain or prosecute someone. But under S.3081, law enforcement and the military can too easily use (hearsay or informants) to allege “suspicious activity” to detain an individual. It is problematic under S.3081 that detained individuals in the U.S. not involved in terrorism or hostile activities, not given Miranda Warnings or allowed legal counsel will be prosecuted for ordinary crimes because of their alleged admissions while in military custody.
FYI: below is enclosed a copy of “Hitler’s Discriminatory Decrees signed February 28, 1933.” Although the Nazi Decrees are written differently than S.3081, the McCain bill could bring America to the same place crushing free speech and personal liberty. Note how the Nazi Government in Section (1) and (4), similar to U.S. S.3081, suspend personal liberty— shutdown Free Speech to intimidate Citizens speaking out against Government:
See Section 1
“Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press, on the right of assembly and the right of association, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications, and warrants for house-searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.”
Similar to McCain’s S. 3081, but using different wording the Nazi Government in Section (4) see below, suspended Constitutional rights, ordered the arrest of Citizens for any ACT that might incite or provoke disobedience against state authorities. McCain’s S.3081 instead mentions detaining and prosecuting Individuals for “supporting hostilities” against U.S. Government. S.3081 is so broadly written any person or group attending a protest could be arrested without provable cause and detained if government charged a protest-supported hostilities.
See Section 4
Whoever provokes, or appeals for or incites to the disobedience of the orders given out by the supreme state authorities or the authorities subject to then for the execution of this decree, or the orders given by the Reich Government according to Section 2, is punishable—insofar as the deed, is not covered by the decree with more severe punishment and with imprisonment of not less that one month, or with a fine from 150 up to 15,000 Reichsmarks.
DECREE OF THE REICH PRESIDENT FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE PEOPLE AND STATE
Note: Based on translations by State Department, National Socialism, 1942 PP. 215-17, and Pollak, J.K., and Heneman, H.J., The Hitler Decrees, (1934), pp. 10-11.7
In virtue of Section 48 (2) of the German Constitution, the following is decreed as a defensive measure against Communist acts of Violence, endangering the state:
Section 1
Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press, on the right of assembly and the right of association, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications, and warrants for house-searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.
Section 2
If in a state the measures necessary for the restoration of public security and order are not taken, the Reich Government may temporarily take over the powers of the highest state authority.
Section 4
Whoever provokes, or appeals for or incites to the disobedience of the orders given out by the supreme state authorities or the authorities subject to then for the execution of this decree, or the orders given by the Reich Government according to Section 2, is punishable—insofar as the deed, is not covered by the decree with more severe punishment and with imprisonment of not less that one month, or with a fine from 150 up to 15,000 Reichsmarks.
Who ever endangers human life by violating Section 1, is to be punished by sentence to a penitentiary, under mitigating circumstances with imprisonment of not less than six months and, when violation causes the death of a person, with death, under mitigating circumstances with a penitentiary sentence of not less that two years. In addition the sentence my include confiscation of property.
Whoever provokes an inciter to or act contrary to public welfare is to be punished with a penitentiary sentence, under mitigating circumstances, with imprisonment of not less than three months.
Section 5
The crimes which under the Criminal Code are punishable with penitentiary for life are to be punished with death: i.e., in Sections 81 (high treason), 229 (poisoning), 306 (arson), 311 (explosion), 312 (floods), 315, paragraph 2 (damage to railroad properties, 324 (general poisoning).
Insofar as a more severe punishment has not been previously provided for, the following are punishable with death or with life imprisonment or with imprisonment not to exceed 15 years:
1. Anyone who undertakes to kill the Reich President or a member or a commissioner of the Reich Government or of a state government, or provokes to such a killing, or agrees to commit it, or accepts such an offer, or conspires with another for such a murder;
2. Anyone who under Section 115 (2) of the Criminal Code (serious rioting) or of Section 125 (2) of the Criminal Code (serious disturbance of the peace) commits the act with arms or cooperates consciously and intentionally with an armed person;
3. Anyone who commits a kidnapping under Section 239 of the Criminal with the intention of making use of the kidnapped person as a hostage in the political struggle.
Section 6
This decree enters in force on the day of its promulgation.
Don
As OCers, and as we post on this forum, if this passes we will have to watch what we do and what is said over the internet as an individual and agroup, even gathering at picknic's while ocing could become a red flag to those in power, should theyperceive it as a threat.
I know it seems that one shouldn't be so paranoid, and this bill in its appearance is aimed atterrorist and anti government activities to include verbal and written anti government views in country, out of country and over the internet, but the language is so broad, that itcould allow law enforcement to interpret any written, verbal and gatherering activity as anti government and apply an arrest and detention without probable cause to its own citizens. As a society, with the pasage of this billit is possible we couldbecome afraid of voicing our opinions against government policy, especially when we start to see our next door neighbor disappearing and not returning, could it happen, I wonder!!
For example, look at section (E) below and question its intent, meaning and who it may apply to, if passed:
S. 3081: Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010
Read the entire bill at the link below
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3081
Please read it and ask yourself if there are loopholes or vagueness in the wording.
Such as "(E) Such other matters as the President considers appropriate" It is assumed "hostiles to the United States" implies people connected to Al Qadea: "(9) UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENT.—
22 The term ‘‘unprivileged enemy belligerent’’ means an
23 individual (other than a privileged belligerent) who—
24 (A) has engaged in hostilities against the
25 United States or its coalition partners;1(B) has purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or was a part of al Qaeda at the time of capture." But my question is what is really considered "hostilities against the U.S.? Could it extend as far as anyone who's fed up with the way policy is going and speaking out against it, or trying to get them changed?
This big clincher in the (9) lines 22-25 are written prior:
(3) INAPPLICABILITY OF CERTAIN STATEMENT
6 AND RIGHTS.—A individual who is suspected of
7 being an unprivileged enemy belligerent shall not,
8 during interrogation under this subsection, be pro
9vided the statement required by Miranda v. Arizona
10 (384 U.S. 436 (1966)) or otherwise be informed of
11 any rights that the individual may or may not have
12 to counsel or to remain silent consistent with Mi
13randa v. Arizona.
EVEN ON AMERICAN SOIL! For Shame! Questioning without representation because they "Suspect" a person. Isn't that the same as guilty until proven innocent?
I understand our needing to be protected from those who would harm us, but lets take a look at this a little closer. I read some headlines that stated military was refusing to destroy heroin poppies over seas, due to wanting the people in the poor communities to cooperate with them and Al Qadea telling those people that they would avenge them if such things went on. Yes, the drug poppies fund Al Qadea forces, also heroin is illegal in the U.S. and our leaders have said if a person uses drugs they are funding our enemy. Do you see where this can lead? More overzealous drug laws and enforcements against people who really have no connection with the enemy forces.
I have concerns that it is one more way to erode our constitutional freedoms. Rights that did not say it only applied under specific circumstances, but ones that were inalienable.
S.3081 if passed will frighten Americans from speaking out.
S.3081 is so broadly written, it appears any “individual” who writes on the Internet or verbally express an opinion against or an entity of U.S. Government or its coalition partners might be detained on the basis he or she is an “unprivileged enemy belligerent”, “supporting hostilities against U.S. Government.”
McCain’s bill mentions “non-violent acts" supporting terrorism in the U.S. and or emanating from America against a Coalition Partner. Non-violent terrorist acts" are covered in the Patriot Act to prosecute Persons that support “coercion to influence a government or intimidation to affect a civilian population.” However, U.S. activists and individuals under S.3081 would be much more vulnerable to prosecution, if (charged with suspicion) of “intentionally providing support to an Act of Terrorism”, for example American activists can’t control what other activists might do illegally—they network with domestically and overseas. Under the Patriot Act, law enforcement generally needs probable cause to detain or prosecute someone. But under S.3081, law enforcement and the military can too easily use (hearsay or informants) to allege “suspicious activity” to detain an individual. It is problematic under S.3081 that detained individuals in the U.S. not involved in terrorism or hostile activities, not given Miranda Warnings or allowed legal counsel will be prosecuted for ordinary crimes because of their alleged admissions while in military custody.
FYI: below is enclosed a copy of “Hitler’s Discriminatory Decrees signed February 28, 1933.” Although the Nazi Decrees are written differently than S.3081, the McCain bill could bring America to the same place crushing free speech and personal liberty. Note how the Nazi Government in Section (1) and (4), similar to U.S. S.3081, suspend personal liberty— shutdown Free Speech to intimidate Citizens speaking out against Government:
See Section 1
“Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press, on the right of assembly and the right of association, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications, and warrants for house-searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.”
Similar to McCain’s S. 3081, but using different wording the Nazi Government in Section (4) see below, suspended Constitutional rights, ordered the arrest of Citizens for any ACT that might incite or provoke disobedience against state authorities. McCain’s S.3081 instead mentions detaining and prosecuting Individuals for “supporting hostilities” against U.S. Government. S.3081 is so broadly written any person or group attending a protest could be arrested without provable cause and detained if government charged a protest-supported hostilities.
See Section 4
Whoever provokes, or appeals for or incites to the disobedience of the orders given out by the supreme state authorities or the authorities subject to then for the execution of this decree, or the orders given by the Reich Government according to Section 2, is punishable—insofar as the deed, is not covered by the decree with more severe punishment and with imprisonment of not less that one month, or with a fine from 150 up to 15,000 Reichsmarks.
DECREE OF THE REICH PRESIDENT FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE PEOPLE AND STATE
Note: Based on translations by State Department, National Socialism, 1942 PP. 215-17, and Pollak, J.K., and Heneman, H.J., The Hitler Decrees, (1934), pp. 10-11.7
In virtue of Section 48 (2) of the German Constitution, the following is decreed as a defensive measure against Communist acts of Violence, endangering the state:
Section 1
Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press, on the right of assembly and the right of association, and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications, and warrants for house-searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.
Section 2
If in a state the measures necessary for the restoration of public security and order are not taken, the Reich Government may temporarily take over the powers of the highest state authority.
Section 4
Whoever provokes, or appeals for or incites to the disobedience of the orders given out by the supreme state authorities or the authorities subject to then for the execution of this decree, or the orders given by the Reich Government according to Section 2, is punishable—insofar as the deed, is not covered by the decree with more severe punishment and with imprisonment of not less that one month, or with a fine from 150 up to 15,000 Reichsmarks.
Who ever endangers human life by violating Section 1, is to be punished by sentence to a penitentiary, under mitigating circumstances with imprisonment of not less than six months and, when violation causes the death of a person, with death, under mitigating circumstances with a penitentiary sentence of not less that two years. In addition the sentence my include confiscation of property.
Whoever provokes an inciter to or act contrary to public welfare is to be punished with a penitentiary sentence, under mitigating circumstances, with imprisonment of not less than three months.
Section 5
The crimes which under the Criminal Code are punishable with penitentiary for life are to be punished with death: i.e., in Sections 81 (high treason), 229 (poisoning), 306 (arson), 311 (explosion), 312 (floods), 315, paragraph 2 (damage to railroad properties, 324 (general poisoning).
Insofar as a more severe punishment has not been previously provided for, the following are punishable with death or with life imprisonment or with imprisonment not to exceed 15 years:
1. Anyone who undertakes to kill the Reich President or a member or a commissioner of the Reich Government or of a state government, or provokes to such a killing, or agrees to commit it, or accepts such an offer, or conspires with another for such a murder;
2. Anyone who under Section 115 (2) of the Criminal Code (serious rioting) or of Section 125 (2) of the Criminal Code (serious disturbance of the peace) commits the act with arms or cooperates consciously and intentionally with an armed person;
3. Anyone who commits a kidnapping under Section 239 of the Criminal with the intention of making use of the kidnapped person as a hostage in the political struggle.
Section 6
This decree enters in force on the day of its promulgation.
Don
