Police detain a national guardsman

Also, what is the law on registration - are open cariers limited to carrying pistols registered to them, or just registered?

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re http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=122298&catid=14and embedded video - looks the police were 'reserve officers" and the citizen is not going to take legal action - is MOC going to ask the city to tighten up is understanding of the law?

Also, what is the law on registration - are open cariers limited to carrying pistols registered to them, or just registered?

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[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]By John Cavanagh[/font] [font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Herald-Journal Writer[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]NEW ERA — A National Guardsman claims he was illegally detained Monday for openly carrying a handgun to the New Era Memorial Day festivities. [/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]David Thomas, 18, of Shelby, said he was sitting on a bench waiting for the parade when he was approached by a couple of Oceana County Sheriff’s Department deputies. He said the sheriff’s deputies were friendly, but expressed to him that some people had concerns about him openly carrying the gun, and asked that he put it in his car.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Dressed in jeans and a T-shirt, Thomas said he told police he had the right under state law to carry the gun and wanted to keep it. He was later approached by New Era Police Chief Roy Strait, who also is a full-time sheriff’s department deputy. Thomas said Strait was very unprofessional, began yelling and pointed a finger in his face.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]“I asked what crime I committed and was given no answer, and I asked why I was being detained and was given no answer,” Thomas said.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Thomas also claims Strait told him, “I will not allow you to openly carry in my town.”[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Thomas said Strait next grabbed him by the arm and placed him in the front seat of the New Era Police cruiser, removed the weapon from his hip and detained him for the duration of the parade.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]“I would say probably half the people there probably didn’t know I was carrying,” Thomas said.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Sheriff’s department Lt. Craig Mast was aware of the incident. He said Thomas was asked to sit in the car while Strait checked the specifics on the open carry law.[/font]
[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]“We’re always very careful about it,” Mast said, adding Assistant Prosecutor Joe Bizon was satisfied with the way the situation was handled. Mast also said police always have to error on the side of caution, and they need to check to make sure people openly carrying firearms are not convicted felons or intoxicated.
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[font="Arial,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif"]WTF is that???? they detained a soldier doing something legal on memorial day at a parade!
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Mike wrote:

re http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=122298&catid=14and embedded video - looks the police were 'reserve officers" and the citizen is not going to take legal action - is MOC going to ask the city to tighten up is understanding of the law?

Also, what is the law on registration - are open cariers limited to carrying pistols registered to them, or just registered?

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Mike - Open Carriers (without CPL) can only carry pistols in MI registered to them. Open Carriers (with CPL) can carry any MI Registered Pistol.

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This is only tangentially related. Memorial Day is the connection.

Suggested replies to cop questions:

COP: "So, if you are not doing anything wrong, why won't you cooperate?" (or) "If you have nothing to hide, why won't you...?"

OCer: "Something over a million Americans have died defending these rights. I'm not going to spit on their graves by waiving them. Am I free to go?"



COP: "This will go easier if you cooperate."

OCer: "Even if you detain me four hours, I'm still getting off cheap compared to the million-some Americans who died defending these rights. Am I free to go?"

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But  open carriers from other states than Michigan, with home state carry permits accepted by Michigan, can carry anybody's handgun even though not reqgistered in Michigan or anywhere else?

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(8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

(a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

(b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

(c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

(d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

(e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.

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David Young presented himself very well in the video and I really believe his encouragement to the viewers to start openly carrying a firearm may be the push that gets some on-the-fencers going.

On the opposite end the words Bull Crap just auto-flowed from my mouth when the Chief stated that the David was free to leave the cruiser at any time. Surrrrrrre! Whenever people are forced into a police car that is the first thing they do is leave the car willingly.


I wonder if they are have a 4th of July event we can go OCing at.

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I would love to hear both sides of this story. I suspect something is missing. There's too many illogical jumps in the description of claimed events here and frankly we are talking about an 18 year old and most adults will agree that the judgment of the average American 18 year old isn't that great. We don't know if the 18 year old got overly confrontational, we know nothing but a fragmented description of claimed events. There is more missing from the story than included, and that can easily be seen by the huge jumps in the description and lacking of Police verbal exchanges. Most Police field investigations include lots more conversation. This is NOT to cast doubt on anyone and this includes the 18 year old or the Police, there just seems to be way too much missing information for any RATIONAL person to make a judgment.


I would love to have a conversation with the 18 year old and the Police, and if the 18 year old was doing as he claimed, he needs full support.

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yes he did represent himself well.

I don't know if he was "forced" or asked I wasn't there. and be warned the media loves to use inflammatory rhetoric, hoping to stir up controversy. This is why I would love to talk to the young man. to make sure the media didn't put words in his mouth. Note and re-watch the video never did David Thomas said the "made" or "forced" him to sit in the car, the media people did. I would advise some to hold their urine and find out the real story, and not blow this up into something it isn't. Anyone who has had media interviews knows full well the media loves to hype things to stir the pot. Let's find David Thomas and hear the whole story unedited by the media hype.

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Mike wrote:

But open carriers from other states than Michigan, with home state carry permits accepted by Michigan, can carry anybody's handgun even though not reqgistered in Michigan or anywhere else?

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The law requires that the out-of-state carrier be the owner of the pistol they're bringing into the state.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422

(8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

(a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

(b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

(c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

(d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

(e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.

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28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

(b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

(c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

(d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

(e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

(g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.

(h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

(i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

(2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".

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28.432a Persons to whom requirements inapplicable; "local corrections officer" defined.

Sec. 12a.

(1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:

(a) A peace officer of a duly authorized police agency of the United States or of this state or a political subdivision of this state, who is regularly employed and paid by the United States or this state or a subdivision of this state, except a township constable.

(b) A constable who is trained and certified under the commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.616, while engaged in his or her official duties or going to or coming from his or her official duties, and who is regularly employed and paid by a political subdivision of this state.

(c) A person regularly employed by the department of corrections and authorized in writing by the director of the department of corrections to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties or while going to or returning from his or her duties.

(d) A person regularly employed as a local corrections officer by a county sheriff, who is trained in the use of force and is authorized in writing by the county sheriff to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties.

(e) A person regularly employed in a city jail or lockup who has custody of persons detained or incarcerated in the jail or lockup, is trained in the use of force, and is authorized in writing by the chief of police or the county sheriff to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties.

(f) A member of the United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps while carrying a concealed pistol in the line of duty.

(g) A member of the national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization while on duty or drill or while going to or returning from his or her place of assembly or practice or while carrying a concealed pistol for purposes of that military organization.

(h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.

(i) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(j) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of his or her vehicle or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(k) A peace officer or law enforcement officer from Canada.

(2) As used in this act, "local corrections officer" means that term as defined in section 2 of the local corrections officers training act, 2003 PA 125, MCL 791.532.

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2. Can a resident of another state legally possess a pistol in Michigan?

If you are a non-resident of Michigan with a valid concealed pistol permit from your home state, Michigan will recognize your permit (MCL 28.432 & MCL 28.432a). However, you must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the permit. You are subject to Michigan's concealed pistol law including but not limited to restrictions on where a concealed pistol may be carried. Without a CPL, a non-resident may not have a pistol in Michigan.

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Come on guys... keep it on topic will ya

Mike? WTF? nice way to derail a good thread.

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Bailenforcer wrote:

yes he did represent himself well.

I don't know if he was "forced" or asked I wasn't there. and be warned the media loves to use inflammatory rhetoric, hoping to stir up controversy. This is why I would love to talk to the young man. to make sure the media didn't put words in his mouth. Note and re-watch the video never did David Thomas said the "made" or "forced" him to sit in the car, the media people did. I would advise some to hold their urine and find out the real story, and not blow this up into something it isn't. Anyone who has had media interviews knows full well the media loves to hype things to stir the pot. Let's find David Thomas and hear the whole story unedited by the media hype.

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MOC Inc. is in contact with David



Who's in charge of the FOIA?

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Bailenforcer wrote:

I would love to hear both sides of this story. I suspect something is missing. There's too many illogical jumps in the description of claimed events here and frankly we are talking about an 18 year old and most adults will agree that the judgment of the average American 18 year old isn't that great. We don't know if the 18 year old got overly confrontational, we know nothing but a fragmented description of claimed events. There is more missing from the story than included, and that can easily be seen by the huge jumps in the description and lacking of Police verbal exchanges. Most Police field investigations include lots more conversation. This is NOT to cast doubt on anyone and this includes the 18 year old or the Police, there just seems to be way too much missing information for any RATIONAL person to make a judgment.


I would love to have a conversation with the 18 year old and the Police, and if the 18 year old was doing as he claimed, he needs full support.

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Oh I don't know, the story fits with some other OC encounters both young and old. We have had 50+ year oldOCers stopped at gun point, compared to that, this story doesn't seem odd. Some LEOs have a power trip especially over the young. They feel the young don't have the resources to cause any back lash.

But as you say a recording of the interaction always helps. That's why we encourage people to have voice recorders at least.

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dougwg wrote:

Bailenforcer wrote:

yes he did represent himself well.

I don't know if he was "forced" or asked I wasn't there. and be warned the media loves to use inflammatory rhetoric, hoping to stir up controversy. This is why I would love to talk to the young man. to make sure the media didn't put words in his mouth. Note and re-watch the video never did David Thomas said the "made" or "forced" him to sit in the car, the media people did. I would advise some to hold their urine and find out the real story, and not blow this up into something it isn't. Anyone who has had media interviews knows full well the media loves to hype things to stir the pot. Let's find David Thomas and hear the whole story unedited by the media hype.

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MOC Inc. is in contact with David

 

Who's in charge of the FOIA?

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Thanks I am talking to Mike now and it's all being handled.

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The FOIA request to the Oceana County Sheriff has been sent out today. I'm working on finding the proper information as to where they route their 911 calls. As soon as I do I will send a FOIA request out there as well.

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