Portland Officer asked to leave cafe

Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Get 'im, SunTzu.

Don't forget to pull out your facts, for example:

• no-knock raids verifiably killing 40 innocent people (See Overkill by Radley Balko)
• the militarization of police
• the 200+ DNA exonerations by the Innocence Project
• the midwest governor who shut down death row because 25% of its inmates were shown to be innocent
• civil asset forfeiture creating "policing for profit" with 40% of chief's surveyed saying asset forfeiture was an important source of funding for police budgets...
• the recent searches,arrests, andharassment of people who recorded on-duty police through the deliberate misapplication of wire-tap laws
• the New Jersey judge who wrote that policeoften lied in his court
• the former cop, Dale Carson, who writes to the effect that police lying in court is so common the police made up a word for it: testilying.
• The video commentary by former cop Barry Cooper about how cops intimidate and cheat during traffic stops, and how drug dogs are made to falsely alert.
• comparatively recent examples of police misbehavior recorded and uploaded to YouTube.
• the open acknowledgement of police abuse in Terry v Ohio.

No sense pretending sheepdogs aren't turning on the sheep.

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all of this from ONE cop buying a cup of coffee to go? :shock:

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No, from the 40,000 OCDO users reading post after post by cop sycophant apologists and chamberlain-water carriers.

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Citizen wrote:

Get 'im, SunTzu.

Don't forget to pull out your facts, for example:

• no-knock raids verifiably killing 40 innocent people (See Overkill by Radley Balko)
• the militarization of police
• the 200+ DNA exonerations by the Innocence Project
• the midwest governor who shut down death row because 25% of its inmates were shown to be innocent
• civil asset forfeiture creating "policing for profit" with 40% of chief's surveyed saying asset forfeiture was an important source of funding for police budgets...
• the recent searches,arrests, andharassment of people who recorded on-duty police through the deliberate misapplication of wire-tap laws
• the New Jersey judge who wrote that policeoften lied in his court
• the former cop, Dale Carson, who writes to the effect that police lying in court is so common the police made up a word for it: testilying.
• The video commentary by former cop Barry Cooper about how cops intimidate and cheat during traffic stops, and how drug dogs are made to falsely alert.
• comparatively recent examples of police misbehavior recorded and uploaded to YouTube.
• the open acknowledgement of police abuse in Terry v Ohio.

No sense pretending sheepdogs aren't turning on the sheep.

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all of this from ONE cop buying a cup of coffee to go? :shock:

if you can condem an oregon cop buying coffee for the actions of a new jersey cop lying to a judge...if you find NO wrong in that....we as a group are predestined to lose our individual rights.... we will be held up as examples of extremists each time someone with a gun goes on a rampage.... its the same thing... wrong of them to do to us, wrong of us to do to the cops.....

i joined this group to support and excercise open carry, not to bash individual cops .... i totally support invesigating the police who initiated the "david pyle raid".... but for all cops everywhere to me help accountable for bad cops anywhere..... i am out, have your group, as a founding member, i say shame on you

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SNIP...i have nothing to fear from the police until the day they come to take away my guns...... but lets behonest, the majority of society has no reason to fear the police.... the majority of police are good and need not be feared.....

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Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

SNIP...i have nothing to fear from the police until the day they come to take away my guns...... but lets behonest, the majority of society has no reason to fear the police.... the majority of police are good and need not be feared.....

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So, police can enforce progressively more and more repressive laws, and as long as they don't come take guns there is no reason to be concerned?

Do guns existfor their own sake? Or, do they exist, among other reasons, to fight back againsteconomic tyranny?

Yes, let's be honest. Lets do a little research on what police have been up to. Lets start, say, with the so-called War on Drugs, and come forward from there. Let's be particularly honest about the Blue Wall of Silence and the fact that so-called good cops cover up for other so-called good cops who make mistakes, and bad cops. These so-called good cops can't be all that interested in protecting the public and securing the rights of the public if they tolerate and cover up for other cops, can they? Sounds like misplaced loyalty to me.

I have been seized by police four times since 2007. Two were illegal on their face. Two, while technically legal at inception, immediately turned into fishing expeditions. Only one seizure occurred because of my OCd gun, leaving three times the government stuck its face in mine with the implied threat of force, economic sanction (fines, legal fees), and loss of freedom that had nothing whatsoever to do with OC.

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now show me the harm, the intimidation, the lies, the false imprisionment in the purchase of coffee, to go..... show me ONE incedent that this cop of 3 years was involved in..... anything you can say about this cop during this incedent? he bought coffee..... yep, he sure did.... he was asked to leave... he left....

please enlighten me, this one cop, what has he done???? show me his misdeed and i will support you 100%

till then, you spew hatred...... its not right

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Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

now show me the harm, the intimidation, the lies, the false imprisionment in the purchase of coffee, to go..... show me ONE incedent that this cop of 3 years was involved in..... anything you can say about this cop during this incedent? he bought coffee..... yep, he sure did.... he was asked to leave... he left....

please enlighten me, this one cop, what has he done???? show me his misdeed and i will support you 100%

till then, you spew hatred...... its not right

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Voicingsuspicion is not spewing hatred. Being suspicious of government is patriotic. John Henry admonished us to view with suspicion all who approach the jewels that are the public liberties.

I don't know about others, but I consider my liberties to be part of the public liberties; and a cop in my face is about the closest approach to my liberties I can imagine short of actual arrest. Do you think Henry was speaking only about legislatures passing laws?

To frame the discussion as "this one cop" is a deliberate avoidance, a misuse of facts.

How is the shop owner to know that this one cop is a good cop or a bad cop? Wait until the cop actually violates his or his customers' rights? With the state of the law makingobtaining redress in the courts very difficult?I have been closely connected tomore than one formal complaint that was swept under the rug.

I can imagine the manager'sthinking. "OK, I'll sell him the coffee to go, that will get him back out the door the quickest." Then, "Oh, damn, he's lingering to talk to this other customer."

After all I have read and videos watched in the last three years, I am very alert any time a badged, gun-toting member of government is in my vicinity. I would ask him politely to leave, too.

In fact, I have politely escorted a cop out of my workplace. Politely. Once the cop realized what I was doing, he became visibly antagonized. He must have done his academy training in the former Soviet Union. You would think a real American would have said to himself, "Oh, there isa bright fellow who knows and properly exercises his rights."

Which brings us back to the main point. Why is anybody criticizing the manager for exercizing his rights? This is America, goddamit. Any real American who knew, believed in and actually applied founding philosophy about rights would say, "Great to see someone exercising their rights. There are far too many who don't know or even care."

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SNIP as i continue to ask you.... what does any of this have to do with a cop buying coffee? again, please tell me what this one cop has done?

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What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

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gogodawgs wrote:

What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

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Inasmuch that it was ordered"to go", I don't think a refund was owed. I probably would have told him to wait outside, and "I'll bring you your money."

My first guess would be the manager sold the coffee because he thought the cop would be leaving directly since it was a to-go purchase. I suspect it was the lingering that prompted the leave request. If the manager was all that set against police, he would have refused the sale, maybe even ejected the cop right as he walked in the door. I suspect the manager had not really thought out his policy completely and was winging it a bit.

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Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

SNIP as i continue to ask you.... what does any of this have to do with a cop buying coffee? again, please tell me what this one cop has done?

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I did answer you. I pointed out that yourargument about this particular cop doing nothing to warrant ejection is contrived and misleading.I'll ask the key question again: How is the manager supposed to know whether this cop is a good cop or a bad cop? Please see the stuff you overlooked in my preceeding post as to why one doesn't want to wait around and find out the hard way. Cops are not your ordinary citizen customers. Cops have authority.

But, thank you for asking again. It reminds me that I didn't even get into the legal reasons a person doesn't want a cop on his property--a cop is always on duty, plain view searches, a citizen possibly being in violation of some law about which he was unaware. Who knows, maybe the cop knows some obscure point about sanitation and calls the Health Department because I didn't polish the steam tube on my expresso machine, or something.

It occurs to me that if more business owners ejected cops, cops might be inspired to clean up their departments and dissassemble the Blue Wall of Silence.

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Citizen wrote:

gogodawgs wrote:

What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

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Inasmuch that it was ordered"to go", I don't think a refund was owed. I probably would have told him to wait outside, and "I'll bring you your money."

My first guess would be the manager sold the coffee because he thought the cop would be leaving directly since it was a to-go purchase. I suspect it was the lingering that prompted the leave request. If the manager was all that set against police, he would have refused the sale, maybe even ejected the cop right as he walked in the door. I suspect the manager had not really thought out his policy completely and was winging it a bit.

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Could it be said that this particular officer, by not asking for his money back, took the high road?

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gogodawgs wrote:

What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

Click to expand...

Inasmuch that it was ordered"to go", I don't think a refund was owed. I probably would have told him to wait outside, and "I'll bring you your money."

My first guess would be the manager sold the coffee because he thought the cop would be leaving directly since it was a to-go purchase. I suspect it was the lingering that prompted the leave request. If the manager was all that set against police, he would have refused the sale, maybe even ejected the cop right as he walked in the door. I suspect the manager had not really thought out his policy completely and was winging it a bit.

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SNIP so as i have asked you, how does the action of this one cop bring forth from you a condemnation of an entire institution?

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Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

SNIP so as i have asked you, how does the action of this one cop bring forth from you a condemnation of an entire institution?

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My writings in this thread are not for the purpose ofcondemning of the institution. The initial purposewas to provide Suntzu direction and ammunition for his part of the discussion.

Then you and I got into our own discussion. The further purpose then becameto providethe reasons why one might not want cops on their property. The condemnatory aspect is only incidental. I'm really surprised you didn't see that.

Are we really to ignore our knowledge about cops and policing, to not use it because the one cop in front of us has not manifested any of the, to use your words, institutional cancer?

At what point is concern about the one cop who has done nothing justified? Never? Are we to remain unconcerned even if almost all cops were tyrant enforcers, merely because the one cop in front of us had done nothing? What about half? Ten percent?

You have carefully avoided answering my question: How is the shop owner to know whether it is a good cop or a bad cop?

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Citizen wrote:

gogodawgs wrote:

What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

Click to expand...

Inasmuch that it was ordered"to go", I don't think a refund was owed. I probably would have told him to wait outside, and "I'll bring you your money."

My first guess would be the manager sold the coffee because he thought the cop would be leaving directly since it was a to-go purchase. I suspect it was the lingering that prompted the leave request. If the manager was all that set against police, he would have refused the sale, maybe even ejected the cop right as he walked in the door. I suspect the manager had not really thought out his policy completely and was winging it a bit.

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If it had been me, a regular citizen OCing, and I had stopped to chat with someone, or even changed my mind and sat down. Would I be out of line to ask for a refund?

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Citizen wrote:

Teddybearfrmhell wrote:

SNIP so as i have asked you, how does the action of this one cop bring forth from you a condemnation of an entire institution?

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My writings in this thread are not for the purpose ofcondemning of the institution. The initial purposewas to provide Suntzu direction and ammunition for his part of the discussion.

Then you and I got into our own discussion. The further purpose then becameto providethe reasons why one might not want cops on their property. The condemnatory aspect is only incidental. I'm really surprised you didn't see that.

Are we really to ignore our knowledge about cops and policing, to not use it because the one cop in front of us has not manifested any of the, to use your words, institutional cancer?

At what point is concern about the one cop who has done nothing justified? Never? Are we to remain unconcerned even if almost all cops were tyrant enforcers, merely because the one cop in front of us had done nothing? What about half? Ten percent?

You have carefully avoided answering my question: How is the shop owner to know whether it is a good cop or a bad cop?

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How is the shop owner to know whether it is a good gun owner or a bad gun owner?

Same argument as the Brady Campaign and Handgun Inc.

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gogodawgs wrote:

Citizen wrote:

gogodawgs wrote:

What would of happened had the LEO, very politely walked back to the counter and sought is money back after being asked to leave. Isn't this what we as OCers espose to do, exercise our right to not associate with those who infringe upon our cause?

It is peculiar that the business let the LEO come into the store and took his money, but then refused his lawful stay in the cafe that is open to the lawful public.

Click to expand...

Inasmuch that it was ordered"to go", I don't think a refund was owed. I probably would have told him to wait outside, and "I'll bring you your money."

My first guess would be the manager sold the coffee because he thought the cop would be leaving directly since it was a to-go purchase. I suspect it was the lingering that prompted the leave request. If the manager was all that set against police, he would have refused the sale, maybe even ejected the cop right as he walked in the door. I suspect the manager had not really thought out his policy completely and was winging it a bit.

Click to expand...

If it had been me, a regular citizen OCing, and I had stopped to chat with someone, or even changed my mind and sat down. Would I be out of line to ask for a refund?

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No. But, if I wanted you out, I'd tell you, too, to wait outside while I got your money. The price of coffee is nothing, though. I wouldn't care if you asked or didn't ask. Whatever got you out the door the fastest.

I think the refund angle is minor. I also think acompulsive need for consistency is small minded.

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