WVCPD traffic stop

imported post

Today around 1140 I was on 5600 West and 4100 South going northbound when I notice a police vehicle in my mirrors of my Motorcycle. And no vehicles in front of me at the time.

I was pulled over by Officer Joseph McCuen ID 8142. He stated I was following to closely the vehicle in front of me. Immediately starts asking me about my shoulder Holster and asks if my gun is loaded. I say yes he asks me if I am open carrying or if I have a permit. I stated I am openly carrying my firearm on my motorcycle.

He states it can't be loaded I corrected him several times on Utah law. He then asks me if I have my permit in which I answer no it is not required for me to carry. Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle. Again I correct him on Utah law. He asks me to put my gun in my bags I told him I would not disarm.

He lectures me on how I am ruining this for everyone and he will be contacting BCI. I told the officer that would be great.

The officer returned with my citation for following to close and a ticket for not having proof of insurance which I told him a day ago it got wet and ruined and was waiting on a new copy. I am listed in the state registry and verified it through a friend who works for the department.

Needless to say I have a meeting with the IA LT on Monday at 0900. I am still contemplating legal action against this officer for violating my civil rights. I will post the Audio as soon as I can get it uploaded.

imported post

Looks like we might just have to go down to city hall and have ourselves a little chat with Chief Nielson. This crap is getting out of hand. When you get your case number, post it so I can add it to my arsenal when I find a good attorney. LOL If we get enough people out in WVC, perhaps we can file a class action, heheheh. I have been holding back reporting WVCPD to the DOJ, but now I am going to "pull the trigger" so to speak.

It is obvious that the officers have been trained that OC loaded without permit is grounds for charge, but they have not been trained on the other relevant laws pertaining to arms possession and transport. They are going to end up in a false arrest situation if they aren't careful. Perhaps I should put together all of the laws in a presentation in big cartoon characters so they can understand them and bring it down there and put them all in the war room and educate them properly. rofl, I find it absolutely ridiculous that an average group of citizens can have a more comprehensive knowledge of applicable law than the officers who are supposed to be enforcing it. Our tax dollars are paying for this crap? Seriously? I don't know about you, but I'm ready for "Alaska" carry already.

Kevin

imported post

Correct me if I am wrong, but..., I thought you had to have a Permit to Carry a Loaded Firearm on any Public Street or on Public Property?

However, your Motorcycle changes this somehow..., but I am not sure how...

Please help me better understand this paradox.

imported post

aadvark wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but..., I thought you had to have a Permit to Carry a Loaded Firearm on any Public Street or on Public Property?

However, your Motorcycle changes this somehow..., but I am not sure how...

Please help me better understand this paradox.

Click to expand...

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle.
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

imported post

so, as long as you're on your motorcycle, you're "in a vehicle" and can carry fully loaded without a permit? but if you dont have a permit and step off the motorcycle, you then break the law?

I have a permit and dont have a motorcycle so it's not a personal issue, it just seems like such a contradictory law.

we'll change it someday!:celebrate

imported post

Porter N wrote:

so, as long as you're on your motorcycle, you're "in a vehicle" and can carry fully loaded without a permit? but if you dont have a permit and step off the motorcycle, you then break the law?

I have a permit and dont have a motorcycle so it's not a personal issue, it just seems like such a contradictory law.

we'll change it someday!:celebrate

Click to expand...

It was just changed this year. Previously, it was illegal to carry loaded in a vehicle without a CFP. The logic behind this change is that your vehicle is an extension of your habitation (home), therefor the "castle doctrine" should apply.

We have a gun friendly legislature and there are many "improvements" in the works. We have learned (finally) that the most effective way to regain our rights is the same way we lost them, one bite at a time.

imported post

Motor Vehicle Defined:

41-6a-102 (34) Means a Vehicle which is self propelled!

I follow too close to other cars, "when my wife is in the car with me" the rest of the time I am not sure about. (never been pulled over for that one.)

Fly straight and make sure your "paper work is on the up and up" I have my insurance and registration in a ziplock baggy in my glove box so I do not have to "search for it" during a stop.

I hope the PA will drop everything just to be rid of such a waste of time and cost to the city of WV. Last time I've seen on the news WVC has much more important items to chase down and fill up the court's timewith, then some Cop "acting Stupidly."

I was getting a window sign put on my car, and took my boys over to the 7-11 for a drink, you know what one I am talking about, no it was not a 40 oz. I was in there for a while, so when I come out I see a Sandy Cop Car pulling in the parking lot. I thought here we go, but he pulls over two Stake-boarder Kids and gives them a lecture. See, now that is more important for public safety in Sandy then a Tanned Skinned Man with a gun and his kids walking the streets with a loaded gun!

imported post

gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.

Click to expand...

If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.

imported post

Are you saying that you have a permit but didn't have it with you, or that you don't have a permit. I'm asking because you said you corrected him after he said you would be breaking the law as soon as you stepped off of the motorcycle.

imported post

Pistol Pete Utah wrote:

I follow too close to other cars, "when my wife is in the car with me" the rest of the time I am not sure about. (never been pulled over for that one.)

Click to expand...

It's funny that I drive too fast, but only when my wife is in the car. The rest of the time, well, I haven't had a speeding ticket in 6 years.

imported post

Thank you for the clarification ofUtah Law concerning Motorcycle Carry.

As I understand it, one may Carry a Loaded Firearm on a Motorcycle, provided; they either: 1. Own the Motorcycle, or 2. Have permission from the Owner.

Is this Logic correct, then..., as it may follow?, that:

It still is a Class B Misdemeanor to Carry the Firearm Loaded, once one disembarks the Motorcycle, however; if the Ammunition to the Firearm is not both: 1. Inserted, and 2. Chambered, then, the Firearm is not Loaded as defined by Law.

Therefore, Open Carry of a Firearm that is at least two actions away from Firing is Legal throughout Utah anywhere, except Secured Facilities.

Is the above statement correct?

(I am learning Utah Law on Firearms, but with everyones help, I will know it soon!)

imported post

aadvark wrote:

It still is a Class B Misdemeanor to Carry the Firearm Loaded, once one disembarks the Motorcycle, however; if the Ammunition to the Firearm is not both: 1. Inserted, and 2. Chambered, then, the Firearm is not Loaded as defined by Law.

Therefore, Open Carry of a Firearm that is at least two actions away from Firing is Legal throughout Utah anywhere, except Secured Facilities.

Click to expand...

Mostly correct. I'll take the second paragraph first, the except is except secure facilities, federal facilities and school zones. In Utah a school zone is defined by:

76-3-203.2. Definitions -- Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises -- Enhanced penalties.
(1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
(i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
(ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
(iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
(iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
(v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).
(b) As used in this section:
(i) "Dangerous weapon" has the same definition as in Section 76-1-601.
(ii) "Educator" means any person who is employed by a public school district and who is required to hold a certificate issued by the State Board of Education in order to perform duties of employment.
(iii) "Within the course of employment" means that an educator is providing services or engaging in conduct required by the educator's employer to perform the duties of employment.

Click to expand...

a far broader definition than the federal GFSZ definition. Utah law makes school zones the biggest gotcha since you can be at a place that normally would be legal and when a school bus pulls up with students on a field trip, you are now in a school zone.

As for your first paragraph, you seem to misinterpret the "two manual actions" requirement. Lets re-read the statute:

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

Click to expand...

Subsection 1 is pretty clear, if there is a round in the chamber, it is loaded.

The accepted interpretation of subsection 2 is for a semi-auto, no round in the chamber (action 1 is chamber a round action 2 is pull the trigger); for a single action pistol, the chamber under the hammer empty (action 1, cock the hammer which rotates a round into firing position, action 2 is pull the trigger); and for a double action revolver, the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber both empty, which requires pulling the trigger twice to fire.

imported post

swillden wrote:

gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.

Click to expand...

If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.

imported post

kdt1970 wrote:

swillden wrote:

gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.

Click to expand...

If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.

Click to expand...

had this same discussion with my brother. IF that is how it happened that would never be convicted.

My thoughts only.

imported post

flicker wrote:

kdt1970 wrote:

swillden wrote:

gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.

Click to expand...

If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.

Click to expand...

had this same discussion with my brother. IF that is how it happened that would never be convicted.

My thoughts only.

Click to expand...

And making the assumption the LEO testified in court that he ordered the person off / out of the vehicle AND THEN CITED THEM FOR LOADED CARRY IN PUBLIC WITHOUT A PERMIT!

imported post

Their seems to be some confusion let me clear it up. I do have a valid CWP I chose not to present it to the LEO.

In Utah you are not required to carry your concealed carry permit with you. The only Identification you need to have with you is a DL IF you are operating a Motor Vehicle.

This is also known as sterile carry where you carry no ID when open carrying under 77-7-15 you are required only to provide your Name Address and explanation of your actions. This is all you need when stopped by a LEO when not operating a motor vehicle.

The officer was way out of line it is believed the stop was due to the sight of my firearm and not the reason of following to close. I was the last Vehicle driving down the road. The half car length is debatable and questionable.

The whole stop was based on my firearm not my actions as a driver. He needed PC and this was all he could find I was not speeding or driving aggressively.

imported post

Didn't they re-name the city "Best Valley City" some years back? Maybe it was just a slogan to improve the city image. It's a wonder it didn't take.

imported post

When is the last time you saw a bad guy driving a motorcycle down the road with his gun out for everyone to see?

Here is were the BGs keep their Firearm on their bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAfzx6aSOA0&feature=PlayList&p=46BB43663025CE91&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=5

In a bag so the Cops can not see it, thankfully this guy did not have a good rig set up, and it appears he never practice withdrawing it from that bag as well. Good thing for those Cops.

imported post

Pistol Pete Utah wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAfzx6aSOA0&feature=PlayList&p=46BB43663025CE91&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=5

Click to expand...

"The suspect died when the deputies fired 12 shots at him, hitting him 5 times."

imported post

gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Their seems to be some confusion let me clear it up. I do have a valid CWP I chose not to present it to the LEO.

In Utah you are not required to carry your concealed carry permit with you. The only Identification you need to have with you is a DL IF you are operating a Motor Vehicle.

This is also known as sterile carry where you carry no ID when open carrying under 77-7-15 you are required only to provide your Name Address and explanation of your actions. This is all you need when stopped by a LEO when not operating a motor vehicle.

The officer was way out of line it is believed the stop was due to the sight of my firearm and not the reason of following to close. I was the last Vehicle driving down the road. The half car length is debatable and questionable.

The whole stop was based on my firearm not my actions as a driver. He needed PC and this was all he could find I was not speeding or driving aggressively.

Click to expand...

If you are carrying a gun "Utah loaded" on a public street (other than in or on your vehicle), then you are either carrying pursuant to a valid permit, OR you are in violation of the law.

You are not required to carry your permit, but if you refuse to produce it or at least let the cops know you have a permit and they should check with BCI to confirm, then you can be properly cited for carry a loaded gun outside your vehicle on a public street.

When you say your gun is loaded, do you mean "Utah loaded" (one in the chamber on a semi-auto), or do you mean merely a fully charged magazine?

Charles