Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: WVCPD traffic stop

  1. #1
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Today around 1140 I was on 5600 West and 4100 South going northbound when I notice a police vehicle in my mirrors of my Motorcycle. And no vehicles in front of me at the time.

    I was pulled over by Officer Joseph McCuen ID 8142. He stated I was following to closely the vehicle in front of me. Immediately starts asking me about my shoulder Holster and asks if my gun is loaded. I say yes he asks me if I am open carrying or if I have a permit. I stated I am openly carrying my firearm on my motorcycle.

    He states it can't be loaded I corrected him several times on Utah law. He then asks me if I have my permit in which I answer no it is not required for me to carry. Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle. Again I correct him on Utah law. He asks me to put my gun in my bags I told him I would not disarm.

    He lectures me on how I am ruining this for everyone and he will be contacting BCI. I told the officer that would be great.

    The officer returned with my citation for following to close and a ticket for not having proof of insurance which I told him a day ago it got wet and ruined and was waiting on a new copy. I am listed in the state registry and verified it through a friend who works for the department.

    Needless to say I have a meeting with the IA LT on Monday at 0900. I am still contemplating legal action against this officer for violating my civil rights. I will post the Audio as soon as I can get it uploaded.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  2. #2
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    580

    Post imported post

    Looks like we might just have to go down to city hall and have ourselves a little chat with Chief Nielson. This crap is getting out of hand. When you get your case number, post it so I can add it to my arsenal when I find a good attorney. LOL If we get enough people out in WVC, perhaps we can file a class action, heheheh. I have been holding back reporting WVCPD to the DOJ, but now I am going to "pull the trigger" so to speak.

    It is obvious that the officers have been trained that OC loaded without permit is grounds for charge, but they have not been trained on the other relevant laws pertaining to arms possession and transport. They are going to end up in a false arrest situation if they aren't careful. Perhaps I should put together all of the laws in a presentation in big cartoon characters so they can understand them and bring it down there and put them all in the war room and educate them properly. rofl, I find it absolutely ridiculous that an average group of citizens can have a more comprehensive knowledge of applicable law than the officers who are supposed to be enforcing it. Our tax dollars are paying for this crap? Seriously? I don't know about you, but I'm ready for "Alaska" carry already.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,605

    Post imported post

    Correct me if I am wrong, but..., I thought you had to have a Permit to Carry a Loaded Firearm on any Public Street or on Public Property?

    However, your Motorcycle changes this somehow..., but I am not sure how...

    Please help me better understand this paradox.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Provo, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,076

    Post imported post

    aadvark wrote:
    Correct me if I am wrong, but..., I thought you had to have a Permit to Carry a Loaded Firearm on any Public Street or on Public Property?

    However, your Motorcycle changes this somehow..., but I am not sure how...

    Please help me better understand this paradox.
    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle.
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alpine, Utah
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    so, as long as you're on your motorcycle, you're "in a vehicle" and can carry fully loaded without a permit? but if you dont have a permit and step off the motorcycle, you then break the law?

    I have a permit and dont have a motorcycle so it's not a personal issue, it just seems like such a contradictory law.

    we'll change it someday!:celebrate

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Provo, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,076

    Post imported post

    Porter N wrote:
    so, as long as you're on your motorcycle, you're "in a vehicle" and can carry fully loaded without a permit? but if you dont have a permit and step off the motorcycle, you then break the law?

    I have a permit and dont have a motorcycle so it's not a personal issue, it just seems like such a contradictory law.

    we'll change it someday!:celebrate
    It was just changed this year. Previously, it was illegal to carry loaded in a vehicle without a CFP. The logic behind this change is that your vehicle is an extension of your habitation (home), therefor the "castle doctrine" should apply.

    We have a gun friendly legislature and there are many "improvements" in the works. We have learned (finally) that the most effective way to regain our rights is the same way we lost them, one bite at a time.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sandy, Utah, USA
    Posts
    215

    Post imported post

    Motor Vehicle Defined:

    41-6a-102 (34) Means a Vehicle which is self propelled!

    I follow too close to other cars, "when my wife is in the car with me" the rest of the time I am not sure about. (never been pulled over for that one.)

    Fly straight and make sure your "paper work is on the up and up" I have my insurance and registration in a ziplock baggy in my glove box so I do not have to "search for it" during a stop.

    I hope the PA will drop everything just to be rid of such a waste of time and cost to the city of WV. Last time I've seen on the news WVC has much more important items to chase down and fill up the court's timewith, then some Cop "acting Stupidly."

    I was getting a window sign put on my car, and took my boys over to the 7-11 for a drink, you know what one I am talking about, no it was not a 40 oz. I was in there for a while, so when I come out I see a Sandy Cop Car pulling in the parking lot. I thought here we go, but he pulls over two Stake-boarder Kids and gives them a lecture. See, now that is more important for public safety in Sandy then a Tanned Skinned Man with a gun and his kids walking the streets with a loaded gun!


    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.
    If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

    You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Jordan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    62

    Post imported post

    Are you saying that you have a permit but didn't have it with you, or that you don't have a permit. I'm asking because you said you corrected him after he said you would be breaking the law as soon as you stepped off of the motorcycle.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, La
    Posts
    175

    Post imported post

    Pistol Pete Utah wrote:
    I follow too close to other cars, "when my wife is in the car with me" the rest of the time I am not sure about. (never been pulled over for that one.)

    It's funny that I drive too fast, but only when my wife is in the car. The rest of the time, well, I haven't had a speeding ticket in 6 years.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,605

    Post imported post

    Thank you for the clarification ofUtah Law concerning Motorcycle Carry.

    As I understand it, one may Carry a Loaded Firearm on a Motorcycle, provided; they either: 1. Own the Motorcycle, or 2. Have permission from the Owner.

    Is this Logic correct, then..., as it may follow?, that:

    It still is a Class B Misdemeanor to Carry the Firearm Loaded, once one disembarks the Motorcycle, however; if the Ammunition to the Firearm is not both: 1. Inserted, and 2. Chambered, then, the Firearm is not Loaded as defined by Law.

    Therefore, Open Carry of a Firearm that is at least two actions away from Firing is Legal throughout Utah anywhere, except Secured Facilities.

    Is the above statement correct?

    (I am learning Utah Law on Firearms, but with everyones help, I will know it soon!)

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Provo, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,076

    Post imported post

    aadvark wrote:
    It still is a Class B Misdemeanor to Carry the Firearm Loaded, once one disembarks the Motorcycle, however; if the Ammunition to the Firearm is not both: 1. Inserted, and 2. Chambered, then, the Firearm is not Loaded as defined by Law.

    Therefore, Open Carry of a Firearm that is at least two actions away from Firing is Legal throughout Utah anywhere, except Secured Facilities.
    Mostly correct. I'll take the second paragraph first, the except is except secure facilities, federal facilities and school zones. In Utah a school zone is defined by:

    76-3-203.2. Definitions -- Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises -- Enhanced penalties.
    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).
    (b) As used in this section:
    (i) "Dangerous weapon" has the same definition as in Section 76-1-601.
    (ii) "Educator" means any person who is employed by a public school district and who is required to hold a certificate issued by the State Board of Education in order to perform duties of employment.
    (iii) "Within the course of employment" means that an educator is providing services or engaging in conduct required by the educator's employer to perform the duties of employment.
    a far broader definition than the federal GFSZ definition. Utah law makes school zones the biggest gotcha since you can be at a place that normally would be legal and when a school bus pulls up with students on a field trip, you are now in a school zone.

    As for your first paragraph, you seem to misinterpret the "two manual actions" requirement. Lets re-read the statute:

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    Subsection 1 is pretty clear, if there is a round in the chamber, it is loaded.

    The accepted interpretation of subsection 2 is for a semi-auto, no round in the chamber (action 1 is chamber a round action 2 is pull the trigger); for a single action pistol, the chamber under the hammer empty (action 1, cock the hammer which rotates a round into firing position, action 2 is pull the trigger); and for a double action revolver, the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber both empty, which requires pulling the trigger twice to fire.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Grantsville, Utah, USA
    Posts
    124

    Post imported post

    swillden wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.
    If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

    You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.
    That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pleasant Grove Utah
    Posts
    47

    Post imported post

    kdt1970 wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.
    If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

    You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.
    That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.
    had this same discussion with my brother. IF that is how it happened that would never be convicted.

    My thoughts only.


  15. #15
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    flicker wrote:
    kdt1970 wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Again he tells me I am breaking the law when I step off my motorcycle.
    If that is what he said, the officer is correct.

    You can OC loaded on your motorcycle, but you must either unload or disarm before stepping off onto a public street. If you still have the gun loaded and on you when you step off the bike, you're in violation of 76-10-505, a class B misdemeanor.
    That would seem like entrapment. Ifthe LOEtold u to get off ur bike, while he knew u didn’t have a permit and he knew it was loaded.
    had this same discussion with my brother. IF that is how it happened that would never be convicted.

    My thoughts only.
    And making the assumption the LEO testified in court that he ordered the person off / out of the vehicle AND THEN CITED THEM FOR LOADED CARRY IN PUBLIC WITHOUT A PERMIT!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  16. #16
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Their seems to be some confusion let me clear it up. I do have a valid CWP I chose not to present it to the LEO.

    In Utah you are not required to carry your concealed carry permit with you. The only Identification you need to have with you is a DL IF you are operating a Motor Vehicle.

    This is also known as sterile carry where you carry no ID when open carrying under 77-7-15 you are required only to provide your Name Address and explanation of your actions. This is all you need when stopped by a LEO when not operating a motor vehicle.

    The officer was way out of line it is believed the stop was due to the sight of my firearm and not the reason of following to close. I was the last Vehicle driving down the road. The half car length is debatable and questionable.

    The whole stop was based on my firearm not my actions as a driver. He needed PC and this was all he could find I was not speeding or driving aggressively.




    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  17. #17
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Didn't they re-name the city "Best Valley City" some years back? Maybe it was just a slogan to improve the city image. It's a wonder it didn't take.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sandy, Utah, USA
    Posts
    215

    Post imported post

    When is the last time you saw a bad guy driving a motorcycle down the road with his gun out for everyone to see?

    Here is were the BGs keep their Firearm on their bike:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAfzx...=1&index=5

    In a bag so the Cops can not see it, thankfully this guy did not have a good rig set up, and it appears he never practice withdrawing it from that bag as well. Good thing for those Cops.
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

  19. #19
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276

    Post imported post

    Pistol Pete Utah wrote: "The suspect died when the deputies fired 12 shots at him, hitting him 5 times."

  20. #20
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Their seems to be some confusion let me clear it up. I do have a valid CWP I chose not to present it to the LEO.

    In Utah you are not required to carry your concealed carry permit with you. The only Identification you need to have with you is a DL IF you are operating a Motor Vehicle.

    This is also known as sterile carry where you carry no ID when open carrying under 77-7-15 you are required only to provide your Name Address and explanation of your actions. This is all you need when stopped by a LEO when not operating a motor vehicle.

    The officer was way out of line it is believed the stop was due to the sight of my firearm and not the reason of following to close. I was the last Vehicle driving down the road. The half car length is debatable and questionable.

    The whole stop was based on my firearm not my actions as a driver. He needed PC and this was all he could find I was not speeding or driving aggressively.



    If you are carrying a gun "Utah loaded" on a public street (other than in or on your vehicle), then you are either carrying pursuant to a valid permit, OR you are in violation of the law.

    You are not required to carry your permit, but if you refuse to produce it or at least let the cops know you have a permit and they should check with BCI to confirm, then you can be properly cited for carry a loaded gun outside your vehicle on a public street.

    When you say your gun is loaded, do you mean "Utah loaded" (one in the chamber on a semi-auto), or do you mean merely a fully charged magazine?

    Charles

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Loaded one in the chamber and yes I do have a valid CWP I just don't always have it with me when I open carry.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  22. #22
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Loaded one in the chamber and yes I do have a valid CWP I just don't always have it with me when I open carry.
    I guess the question is, when asked if you "have" a permit, do you simply say "no" leaving the officer to assume you have not been issued a valid permit to carry? Or, do you tell him you do have a permit, but do not have the printed copy of it on your person?

    I was once told that any communication intended to leave a false impression was, in fact, a lie. I don't know that that definition would hold up in court. But from a moral perspective ("Thou shalt not lie") I think it is a good starting point.

    Your desire to "sterile" OC leads me to believe that you are deliberately attempting to mislead. My suggestion is this:

    If you want to "sterile OC" then do so in a manner and a location where no permit is needed. IE, "Utah unloaded" AND outside a school zone; OR within your own vehicle or real property.

    If you want to carry fully loaded, or in a school zone, then either hand the cop your permit or at least tell him you have been issued a permit, it is still valid, but you do not have a copy of it on your person at this time.

    We are starting to lay the groundwork for fixing our overly-broad definition of school zones. We've got permit-free carry in the works. Combined, those would allow you to "sterile carry" to your heart's content. How much time do you figure we should detract from those efforts to fight off efforts to require us to carry our permits on our person at all times because cops and prosecutors can come tell stories about people who claim not to have permits when they are carrying in such a way or location as to either need a permit or to be in violation of the law?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    I told the officer indeed I had a valid permit just did not have the permit with me. They were never misled as to if I had a permit or not.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  24. #24
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    Again, my apologies as I misunderstood your conversation regarding the permit.

    I'd encourage you to carry the permit more often rather than attempting some form of quasi-sterile OC. Real, sterile OC is not possible in most of urban Utah due to school zones. It is not possible fully loaded due to our current laws about carry loaded guns on public streets. It is not possible in cars (where a permit is not required) due to the requirement to produce a drive license. The notion of sterile carry originated in places like Virginia and Arizona that are gold-star, permit-free OC States. It really is not applicable to Utah (yet).

    My permit lives right next to my DL, a couple of credit cards, and a little cash; and I rarely leave home without all of the above as I don't care to ever be one of those "John Does" lining a hospital bed or morgue as the authorities try to figure out who I am so as to contact my next of kin, nor needing to buy gas or a big gulp and being without some means of doing so.

    Your carrying and presenting a permit would allow everyone involved and those who may wish to get involved in helping correct the situation after the fact to focus on the important aspects rather than the peripheral aspects.

    Not being required to carry a permit is a nice part of our law. If you forget your permit, if you lose it or have it stolen, or it is damaged, you are still technically legal to carry. But pushing that issue right now seems less important to me than making sure our police officers, prosecutors, and other government officials are abiding the material aspects of our law including car carry, permit-free OC (Utah unloaded and outside a school zone), and fully loaded and/or school-zone OC pursuant to a permit.

    I just don't see what "sterile" or semi-sterile OC does for us at this point, especially if you are carrying in such a manner or location as to have be legal only pursuant to a permit or to be legally required to produce a DL anyway.

    Or maybe I just misunderstand because my primary goal is to advance RKBA. If your primary goal is to advance privacy rights and you are OCing mostly as a means of creating situations in which police are more likely to ask for ID you are not legally required to produce, then just let me know. That perspective, however, might have certain effects on many in the RKBA community and their willingness to support your actions.

    I'm here to advance RKBA. Privacy laws regarding producing ID is way down my list of concerns to be honest. The veritable proctological exams to board airplanes (aka the TSA striptease) is far more offensive to me than handing a cop ID if he wants to know who I am on the street. In fact, I'd rather hand him ID of some kind than have him radioing my name, DOB, and SS number back and forth over the radio where anyone with a scanner can pick it up. I'm not a huge fan of absolute privacy or anonymity anyway. I think it breeds a lot of problems and from the earliest days of our nation, stop and ID (formally or informally) was common and accepted even though official ID documents were unheard of. But we all have our priorities.

    If your priority is RKBA, I'd encourage you to carry your permit and provide it even when not required to (at least until we get permit-free constitutional carry and fix school zones). Doing so leaves only the more important RKBA questions at hand and avoids clouding any case with peripheral issues like ID or whether you were sufficiently cooperative.

    If your priority is something other than RKBA, you should be good enough to let us all know that right up front.

    All the best.

    Charles

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    580

    Post imported post

    Just to throw my .02 cents in here Charles. In cases like mine where an officer threatens to take you into custody in front of your kids for calling him out on title 77-7-15, this is absolutely relevant to our cause, especially when an officer "targets" you and comes up with some BS excuse to detain you based soley on the presence of your sidearm in a public place. I don't know about you, but when I am illegally detained for questioning, I don't take kindly to being cooperative. If they are going to ruin my day, I'm not going to bend over and take it in the rear and make it easy for them either. The law is the law, and if it says I don't have to produce physical documents, then dammit, I shouldn't have to, and neither should Zach in his case. If the officer didn't have his head in the clouds, then he would have known better than to get all over his case and just kindly ask him for his name and DOB, which is all dispatch needs to verify his valid CWP. The negative and aggressive and threatening tone that these officers use when dealing with us is absolutely uncalled for as well. We do not deserve to be talked down to when we try to educate an OEO. It's a damn shame that the relationship between civilians and their LEO counterparts has deteriorated to where it is now. What ever happened to civility and respect between the two? Why do we have to go through the hassle of retaining a lawyer and suing the crap out of them just to make them sit up, listen and follow the law? Why is it that we have to become lay-lawyers just to protect ourselves from their ignorance? Personally, I'm sick and tired of memorizing codes and statutes. This isn't my profession. The police should be doing this type of thing in their spare time because it is their job to know the law as well and know it better than us, but they obviously don't. That's for sure.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •