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Thread: OT: Can a person shoot an armed Bounty Hunter ( Bail enforcement) that breaks in unannounced?

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    Now I have not committed any crimes in my life (thank god) not, nor do I plan on doing any crimes either, but if someone was in a situation where bail enforcement agents were after him on a bail warrant, would he be justified in using lethal force if they broke into his home without announcing who they were and why they were breaking in? Yeah, i know what you are thinking: "Either that is a brilliant question, or he has one active imagination."

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    Well, if they have a warrant serious enough that a bounty hunter would break in, they probably aren't supposed to own firearms by law in the first place.

    However, if they are in fear for their life, and it was an unannounced sudden break in, I don't see how it wouldn't be justified self defense. But then the question is raised about whether they've done something to revoke their right to own firearms.

    Good question.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    Now I have not committed any crimes in my life
    Really? There are so many laws, there is no way to be sure.

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    Can a person shoot an armed Bounty Hunter ( Bail enforcement) that breaks in unannounced?
    Think about the meaning of CAN and compare it to MAY. Yes the BG can shoot the BH. The result would be 1) The BH is probably dead, 2) The BG will probably go back to jail, 3) the BG will probably be charged with a) felon in possession of a gun, b) parole violation.

    So we wind up with the BG going back to jail this time probably without being able to post bail. The Bounty Hunter is dead. If the BH was so intent on getting that BG he was probably already charged with something very serious and one more crime on his record wouldn't be a big deal to him. So yes a bail jumper can shoot the Bounty Hunter but he will be in all kinds of legal trouble. The question you may want to ask is if the BG defends himself in some other fashion than with a gun then is that legal. The Castle Doctrine laws do not say anything about guns, that is something that we assume. The CD provides that we may defend ourselves without fear of prosecution however it does not say specifically that we may use a gun anymore than we may use a knife or our bare hands.

    This just demonstrates that Bounty Hunting is a very dangerous job and you bettter know what you are doing. The ones you are after usually have very little to lose.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    A better question would be is a Bails Bondsman legally able to use force to enter your home to apprehend a bail jumper, YES.

    Note you will know if you are subject to a Bail Bondsman as They Would Have Bailed You Out Of Jail !

    A Bail Bondsman must take steps for bail jumping through the courts.

    Chapter 18.185 RCW Bail bond agents

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185

    RCW 9A.76.170
    Bail jumping.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.76.170

    RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

    (1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

    (a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur; and

    (b) Notify an appropriate law enforcement agency in the local jurisdiction in which the apprehension is expected to occur. Notification must include, at a minimum: The name of the defendant; the address, or the approximate location if the address is undeterminable, of the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur; the name of the bail bond recovery agent; the name of the contracting bail bond agent; and the alleged offense or conduct the defendant committed that resulted in the issuance of a bail bond.

    (2) During the actual planned forced entry, a bail bond recovery agent:

    (a) Shall wear a shirt, vest, or other garment with the words "BAIL BOND RECOVERY AGENT," "BAIL ENFORCEMENT," or "BAIL ENFORCEMENT AGENT" displayed in at least two-inch-high reflective print letters across the front and back of the garment and in a contrasting color to that of the garment; and

    (b) May display a badge approved by the department with the words "BAIL BOND RECOVERY AGENT," "BAIL ENFORCEMENT," or "BAIL ENFORCEMENT AGENT" prominently displayed.

    (3) Any law enforcement officer who assists in or is in attendance during a planned forced entry is immune from civil action for damages arising out of actions taken by the bail bond recovery agent or agents conducting the forced entry.

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    Wouldn't a more appropriate question be - what if a BH forced his way into your home by mistake? They purposefully dress to look like police - so it would be easy for you to think that guys "dressed like cops" just barged into your house.

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    Don't jump bail and you don't have to worry about it. Bounty Hunters tend to play a little rougher than police.

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    How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
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    amzbrady wrote:
    ...in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
    Fake police uniforms, or clothing intended to give the impression of "police" - can be, and have been, used in home invasions.

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    deanf wrote:
    Now I have not committed any crimes in my life
    Really? There are so many laws, there is no way to be sure.
    There are so many laws that it is sure you have. (Okay, that's hyperbole, but sadly not all that much...)

    http://www.google.com/search?q=three+felonies+per+day

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    amzbrady wrote:
    How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
    I think it's incredibly unprofessional. How do you get a wrong address? That's not just a minor error. If that has happened, I hope the citizens filed a major lawsuit.

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    tannerwaterbury wrote:
    Now I have not committed any crimes in my life (thank god) not, nor do I plan on doing any crimes either, but if someone was in a situation where bail enforcement agents were after him on a bail warrant, would he be justified in using lethal force if they broke into his home without announcing who they were and why they were breaking in? Yeah, i know what you are thinking: "Either that is a brilliant question, or he has one active imagination."
    If he's not an LEO with a warrant, you're justified in shooting at him if he's breaking into your home. He's just a private citizen like you or me, nothing more. He has no right to force entry into your home for any reason.

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    I owned a Bail Enforcement Company for 3 years, BH'd for almost 5. Granted, this was 9 years ago, but still valid.

    Same as if real cops bust down the wrong door (it happens), they have to announce themselves upon entering. BH'ers follow the same policy. I personally have gone into houses where I thought the skip was at, but wasn't and startled the homeowners, but they were all friends / family of the skip and either addresses listed on his sheet, or from reliable intel.

    If we ever got other intel, we would verify before kicking a door. Stake-out.. Woot!

    Basically when ever we entered a home, forcefully, we would come with a force, multiple entry points, quick and loud. Never BH alone, that will get you killed.


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    amzbrady wrote:
    How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
    If you are honestly unaware that the "home invaders" you are shooting at are really LEO's, you aren't committing a crime by defending your home. If you know they're cops and you're shooting anyway, you're committing a crime.

    No matter what the truth is, the legality of your actions will be decided in court.

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    Hef wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
    No matter what the truth is, the legality of your actions will be decided in court.
    Which doesn't comfort me too much..

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    Hef wrote:
    If he's not an LEO with a warrant, you're justified in shooting at him if he's breaking into your home. He's just a private citizen like you or me, nothing more. He has no right to force entry into your home for any reason.
    Wrong they have every right to enter your home.... Taylor vs. Taintor defines that
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_v._Taintor

    Don't mind the wiki, it's well published and you can confirm with other places.


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    massiedesign wrote:
    Wrong they have every right to enter your home.... Taylor vs. Taintor defines that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_v._Taintor
    The way I read it is that they have a right to enter a home of the bail jumper or where he resides that is not to say they have a right to enter any home.

    On the issue of conducting a no knock type entry to arrest a bail jumper the bail bondsman will be responsible "if any evil ensue, they must bear the burden of the consequences, and cannot cast them upon the obligee.."

    If you are of clean hands other words not involved or some how wrapped up this the bail jumper activities or where he resides, I would consider treating it as a home invasion.

    Even though the bail bondsman have taken steps to avoid such errors it still lays in their hands if any harms comes of it and does not take away a citizens right to self defense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_v._Taintor
    When bail is given, the principal is regarded as delivered to the custody of his sureties.

    Their dominion is a continuance of the original imprisonment. Whenever they choose to do so, they may seize him and deliver him up in their discharge; and if that cannot be done at once, they may imprison him until it can be done.

    They may exercise their rights in person or by agent.

    They may pursue him into another State; may arrest him on the Sabbath; and if necessary, may break and enter his house for that purpose.

    The seizure is not made by virtue of new process. None is needed. It is likened to the rearrest by the sheriff of an escaping prisoner.

    In 6 Modern it is said: "The bail have their principal on a string, and may pull the string whenever they please, and render him in their discharge."
    The rights of the bail in civil and criminal cases are the same.

    They may doubtless permit him to go beyond the limits of the State within which he is to answer, but it is unwise and imprudent to do so; and if any evil ensue, they must bear the burden of the consequences, and cannot cast them upon the obligee.
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    That case brings up a question. If the Bounty Hunter had gone to Maine, broken McGuire out of jail and returned him to Conn. to face trial there in order to not lose their bail would they have been charged with aiding an escape in Maine? I see where two justices recused themselves from the case. Anyone know why without me having to research it. Also sounds like a good reason for judges to tell someone not to leave the state when let out on bail.

    Sounds similar to a case locally where a person was released from the county jail because his time was up only to find out a couple of days later he was supposed to be transferred to a different prision to finish serving the rest of his term there. When they found out about it they put out a APB on him only to find him at his house. When the got there to arrest him he said "I was expecting you a lot sooner. The fellow told me I was free to go and I wasn't going to argue with him."

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    BigDave wrote:
    RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

    (1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

    (a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur...
    Am I the only one that finds this a possible search violation under the 4th Amendment? We have a right to be secure in our homes unless, through due process of law, probable cause is obtained - not reasonable cause, whatever the hell that means.

    It seems to me that this RCW is saying that if government "employees" want to enter your home they need a warrant and probable cause. But, if government "contractors" want to enter your home they need a much lower standard of evidence, and no approval from a judge.

    I don't like the way it smells, but then again it's hard to tell over the overwhelming stench of government in general.

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    One point of order here, Bounty Hunters or Bail Enforcement Agents are not Government Contractors, they are private contractors working on behalf of Private Individuals or companies. To tell the truth lots of time the government doesn't want them to find the BG, that means they will be brought back from another state to have to take care of, feed and house, and return the bail money that was forfeited. Usually then only one that wants the bail jumper returned is the bondsman.

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    Thanks for all the answers guys! Funny thing is, this thought crossed my mind while watching an episode of Dog the Bounty Hunter

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    I know myown legalhistory (or lack thereof), and I don't invite other people into my home that would be the subject of a bountyhunter. Having said that, if someone wants to execute a "no-knock" warrant on my place, they better be damn good at what they're doing, and A LOT faster than I am, because they would likely end not very good for the bounty hunter.

    I'm a reasonable person, and I feel that if someone is forceably entering my home without my permission, I would view that as a potential lethal threat to myself and my family, and act accordingly. That's what I would think a reasonable person would do in my situation. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050



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    A goof point about reasonable. Put yourself on the jury and are you going to let the fact that the worst crime G29 had everbeen involved withwas a speeding ticket and someone breaks down his door vs. fitty-dimes was just sitting around with his homies all who had rap sheets in five counties and out on bail. Do you really expect the same reaction out of both people? As a juror you may not suppose to be taking that into account and if so don't put me on the jury.

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    If I was still hunting, I would not be kicking down your door unless I had 100% proof that the person I was looking for was in the house.

    99% of the time though, we don't kick at all.. We knocked. One team in the back, a few guys in the front.... They always run out the back lol....

    You deny entry, we have a couple of options. Since we have in our possession an arrest warrant we can;

    1) Force Entry - Happened a few times if we see the guy flipping us off from the Kitchen

    2) Secure the Property and Call PD, who will then assist us in getting access. The downside to this is that most of the time the cops will then transport and book... Thus eliminating our paycheck (modest at most).

    When I did the job it wasn't (and still isn't) about violating your rights, or further reach of the Gov.... It was about getting drunks, sex offenders, child rapists and other people who could care less about your rights, off the street.

    I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...
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    massivedesign wrote:

    I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...
    Would you have blamed them if they shot you? I wouldn't.

    Not that I am anti-bounty hunter just pro your home is your castle.

    Up until this last century warrants were often given to citizens who could than go make arrests or retrieve property. Without law-enforcement. I think though the danger of getting shot or the hassle of getting a warrant would make most be damned sure they were in the right. Because there are court cases all the way to the Supreme court that ruled deadly force is your right in the case of a false arrest/warrant.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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