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OT: Can a person shoot an armed Bounty Hunter ( Bail enforcement) that breaks in unannounced?

G20-IWB24/7

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I know myown legalhistory (or lack thereof), and I don't invite other people into my home that would be the subject of a bountyhunter. Having said that, if someone wants to execute a "no-knock" warrant on my place, they better be damn good at what they're doing, and A LOT faster than I am, because they would likely end not very good for the bounty hunter.

I'm a reasonable person, and I feel that if someone is forceably entering my home without my permission, I would view that as a potential lethal threat to myself and my family, and act accordingly. That's what I would think a reasonable person would do in my situation. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050
 

PT111

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A goof point about reasonable. Put yourself on the jury and are you going to let the fact that the worst crime G29 had everbeen involved withwas a speeding ticket and someone breaks down his door vs. fitty-dimes was just sitting around with his homies all who had rap sheets in five counties and out on bail. Do you really expect the same reaction out of both people? As a juror you may not suppose to be taking that into account and if so don't put me on the jury.
 

massivedesign

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If I was still hunting, I would not be kicking down your door unless I had 100% proof that the person I was looking for was in the house.

99% of the time though, we don't kick at all.. We knocked. One team in the back, a few guys in the front.... They always run out the back lol....

You deny entry, we have a couple of options. Since we have in our possession an arrest warrant we can;

1) Force Entry - Happened a few times if we see the guy flipping us off from the Kitchen

2) Secure the Property and Call PD, who will then assist us in getting access. The downside to this is that most of the time the cops will then transport and book... Thus eliminating our paycheck (modest at most).

When I did the job it wasn't (and still isn't) about violating your rights, or further reach of the Gov.... It was about getting drunks, sex offenders, child rapists and other people who could care less about your rights, off the street.

I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...
 

sudden valley gunner

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massivedesign wrote:
I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...

Would you have blamed them if they shot you? I wouldn't.

Not that I am anti-bounty hunter just pro your home is your castle.

Up until this last century warrants were often given to citizens who could than go make arrests or retrieve property. Without law-enforcement. I think though the danger of getting shot or the hassle of getting a warrant would make most be damned sure they were in the right. Because there are court cases all the way to the Supreme court that ruled deadly force is your right in the case of a false arrest/warrant.
 

BigDave

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massivedesign wrote:
I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...
Thank you for sharing this experience and I am glad things did not turn out worse then they did.

In this case you kicked in the wrong door and it could have turned out must worse then it did, but as I read the information earlier in this type of incident the bail bondsman is totally liable.

Hypothetical if bondman in this same situation and they were shot by the home owner, the home owner would not be at fault.

It is a profession I never considered but there is a place in society for them.
 

amzbrady

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Cops bustin down wrong doors actually happens often. They just had an instance where they busted into a duplex and got the wrong side and beat the crap out of the guy.
 

sudden valley gunner

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amzbrady wrote:
Cops bustin down wrong doors actually happens often. They just had an instance where they busted into a duplex and got the wrong side and beat the crap out of the guy.

There was a case in Denver I think it was the elderly man shot and killed two officers before they killed him. And ooops wrong house.

Mayor's comment " ...if he didn't have a gun he'd still be alive today...." or something to that effect.
 

Citizen

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
Cops bustin down wrong doors actually happens often. They just had an instance where they busted into a duplex and got the wrong side and beat the crap out of the guy.
There was a case in Denver I think it was the elderly man shot and killed two officers before they killed him. And ooops wrong house.

Mayor's comment " ...if he didn't have a gun he'd still be alive today...." or something to that effect.
Scroll down to Resisting Arrest:

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

I know the elderly man wasn't resisting arrest, but there is other pertinentinformation in the article.
 

END_THE_FED

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SaintJacque wrote:
BigDave wrote:
RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

(1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

(a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur...
Am I the only one that finds this a possible search violation under the 4th Amendment? We have a right to be secure in our homes unless, through due process of law, probable cause is obtained - not reasonable cause, whatever the hell that means.

It seems to me that this RCW is saying that if government "employees" want to enter your home they need a warrant and probable cause. But, if government "contractors" want to enter your home they need a much lower standard of evidence, and no approval from a judge.

I don't like the way it smells, but then again it's hard to tell over the overwhelming stench of government in general.
When you agree to take bail money from a bondsman you sign a paper giving him permission to enter your home. Its one of the terms of the contract.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Citizen wrote:
sudden valley gunner wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
Cops bustin down wrong doors actually happens often. They just had an instance where they busted into a duplex and got the wrong side and beat the crap out of the guy.
There was a case in Denver I think it was the elderly man shot and killed two officers before they killed him. And ooops wrong house.

Mayor's comment " ...if he didn't have a gun he'd still be alive today...." or something to that effect.
Scroll down to Resisting Arrest:

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

I know the elderly man wasn't resisting arrest, but there is other pertinentinformation in the article.
Yea you gave that link to me months ago and it's a great read. It really shows how far off track our "justic" system has gone.
 

massivedesign

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
massivedesign wrote:
I have kicked in a wrong door before... Want to know what I did?? Took the nice lady's son to Home Depot and picked out a new door. Spent the rest of the evening installing it for them. It was a townhouse and when I went next door to see if somebody could help me line up the door, the Skip answered... I lol'd as I placed him into custody...

Would you have blamed them if they shot you? I wouldn't.

Not that I am anti-bounty hunter just pro your home is your castle.

Up until this last century warrants were often given to citizens who could than go make arrests or retrieve property. Without law-enforcement. I think though the danger of getting shot or the hassle of getting a warrant would make most be damned sure they were in the right. Because there are court cases all the way to the Supreme court that ruled deadly force is your right in the case of a false arrest/warrant.

No, I would not have blamed them.... At no time during this thread have I said that people in the profession are immune, nor would I ever expect that. My main point was that "most" people in this profession will do TONS of due diligence to determine if a person of interest is behind that door. Any person who doesn't is careless and most likely to put himself in a very bad situation.

Back when I did it, the WACJTS didn't regulate us. We didn't have to go to a long training mini-boot camp. We did our own training, created our own policy and had a very good lawyer on retainer. Back then, there were a lot of people hunting, who should not have been. We got our contracts from the Bail Bondsmen and were an agent of them (and them only).

And, just to give you an idea... The cut (when we did it) was minimal.. If you had a bail of $10,000, the person only needed to put up 1k to the bail bondsmen, who would then put up the rest to release the person (the 1k is not refundable to the original person). When the accused returns to court etc, the bond is refunded back to the bondsmen and that 1k is his profit!! Now, if you skip, he is out 9k.. He hires us and gives us 10% of the OP's amount.. So, a 10k bail would net us $100 whopping bucks. Now, granted, 100k bail would give us 1k, but those didn't come very often.

All in all, in all the years of doing it (part time, evening weekends) our company made a profit of...... $20, total. After all the gas, meals insurance etc were paid.. $20... We didn't do it for the $$, we did it to protect the victims, to keep our neighborhood safe, and, well, it's a hell of a rush!
 

John Hardin

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Aaron1124 wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
I think it's incredibly unprofessional. How do you get a wrong address? That's not just a minor error. If that has happened, I hope the citizens filed a major lawsuit.
If that has happened?

http://www.google.com/search?q=police+raid+wrong+house

And to my earlier comment:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22home+invasion%22+%22dressed+as+police%22
 

Citizen

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John Hardin wrote:
Aaron1124 wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.
I think it's incredibly unprofessional. How do you get a wrong address? That's not just a minor error. If that has happened, I hope the citizens filed a major lawsuit.
If that has happened?

Something like 40 innocent people have been killed in paramilitary raids in this country.

Radley Balko, formerly of Cato Institute, is a major source of information on the subject.

To read his definitive paper on it, go to the link below. On that page there is a link to purchase the book, or, if you prefer, there is a link to download it.

Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Aaron1124 wrote:
Hef wrote:
amzbrady wrote:
How about a spin, What about the police barging into your house unanounced? We have all read news articles where the police have busted down the wrong door by misreading an address. What if they come busting in, in a group of five with shotguns, in reality what are you going to notice first, the uniform or the shotgun coming through the door.

No matter what the truth is, the legality of your actions will be decided in court.
Which doesn't comfort me too much.

It is estimated, conservatively, that 10% of raids are by mistake. Think about it--police are dealing with criminals rolling on other criminals, people write the wrong digit, etc. Their entry into your home, although by mistake, legally the police are covered...they are entering under legitimate pretenses. If they were to enter your home and shot you dead, then found out that they entered the wrong house, too bad for you.

If someone forced their way into my home, I would hold down and demand they prove they are police and not to come into the house any further until they do so. I will not relinquish my sidearm without proof and NO, yelling "police" is not enough proof in my house.
 

END_THE_FED

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Citizen wrote:
Something like 40 innocent people have been killed in paramilitary raids in this country.

Radley Balko, formerly of Cato Institute, is a major source of information on the subject.

To read his definitive paper on it, go to the link below. On that page there is a link to purchase the book, or, if you prefer, there is a link to download it.

Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476
40? was that a typo? that sound like a pretty low number.
 

amzbrady

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END_THE_FED wrote:
SaintJacque wrote:
BigDave wrote:
RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

(1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

(a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur...
Am I the only one that finds this a possible search violation under the 4th Amendment? We have a right to be secure in our homes unless, through due process of law, probable cause is obtained - not reasonable cause, whatever the hell that means.

It seems to me that this RCW is saying that if government "employees" want to enter your home they need a warrant and probable cause. But, if government "contractors" want to enter your home they need a much lower standard of evidence, and no approval from a judge.

I don't like the way it smells, but then again it's hard to tell over the overwhelming stench of government in general.
When you agree to take bail money from a bondsman you sign a paper giving him permission to enter your home. Its one of the terms of the contract.
but they can not enter your mom or dads house without warrant right?
 

massivedesign

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amzbrady wrote:
END_THE_FED wrote:
SaintJacque wrote:
BigDave wrote:
RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

(1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

(a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur...
Am I the only one that finds this a possible search violation under the 4th Amendment? We have a right to be secure in our homes unless, through due process of law, probable cause is obtained - not reasonable cause, whatever the hell that means.

It seems to me that this RCW is saying that if government "employees" want to enter your home they need a warrant and probable cause. But, if government "contractors" want to enter your home they need a much lower standard of evidence, and no approval from a judge.

I don't like the way it smells, but then again it's hard to tell over the overwhelming stench of government in general.
When you agree to take bail money from a bondsman you sign a paper giving him permission to enter your home. Its one of the terms of the contract.
but they can not enter your mom or dads house without warrant right?

Correct, but it's just an arrest warrant, not a search. when in possession of the bail bondsmen (or agent), its almost like a free pass...
 

END_THE_FED

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amzbrady wrote:
END_THE_FED wrote:
SaintJacque wrote:
BigDave wrote:
RCW 18.185.300Bail bond recovery agent — Planned forced entry — Requirements.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.185.300

(1) Before a bail bond recovery agent may apprehend a person subject to a bail bond in a planned forced entry, the bail bond recovery agent must:

(a) Have reasonable cause to believe that the defendant is inside the dwelling, building, or other structure where the planned forced entry is expected to occur...
Am I the only one that finds this a possible search violation under the 4th Amendment? We have a right to be secure in our homes unless, through due process of law, probable cause is obtained - not reasonable cause, whatever the hell that means.

It seems to me that this RCW is saying that if government "employees" want to enter your home they need a warrant and probable cause. But, if government "contractors" want to enter your home they need a much lower standard of evidence, and no approval from a judge.

I don't like the way it smells, but then again it's hard to tell over the overwhelming stench of government in general.
When you agree to take bail money from a bondsman you sign a paper giving him permission to enter your home. Its one of the terms of the contract.
but they can not enter your mom or dads house without warrant right?
yeah I think that's the case unless ones mom or dad "co signed" for the bond.
 
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