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Thread: Coffee shop asks OCing LEO to leave.

  1. #1
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    I just heard this story on Fox News.

    A vegan coffee shop in Portland, Oregon says police officers are not welcome.

    The latest incident happened when Officer James Crocker, and Iraq War veteran, was asked to leave the Red and Black Hat Coffee Shop because of his profession. Here's the coffee shop's co-owner [John Langley]:

    I felt...um...just really uncomfortable about it. And, I felt like many of our customers and my coworkers would also, you know, not feel safe in a space with a uniformed police officer with a gun.
    Hmmm, I wonder how he'll feel when his place is robbed and no police officer shows up?

    Langley reportedly asked the cop to leave after a fellow patron went up to the officer and thanked him, actually, for his work.
    How ironic. I guess guns belonging to LEOs are also likely to jump out of their holsters and start opening fire as those carried by OCers.

    Bad guns, bad, bad!

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    What will this mental midget say if a criminal barges in with a gun to rob the place?

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    cm2624 wrote:
    What will this mental midget say if a criminal barges in with a gun to rob the place?
    He will ask the man to leave--every bit as politely as he asked the cop to leave. I'm sure the criminal will then respond as graciously the LEO did.

    After all, the problem is the gun and not the person.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    What I find interesting is that ordinary folks who OC are asked to leave businesses and there is no outcry by any news agency.... but... let one cop OC'ing be treated in the same manner as an every day citizen and all hell breaks loose.

    It doesn't matter if the business is owned by, or caters to, folks who don't like cops (as implied per reporting I heard on TV that the cafe is frequented by liberals and homeless) private property rights give the owners every right to toss out anyone who isn't a member of a legally protected class....... including cops wearing guns in plain sight.

    Now... please read what I wrote carefully.. there is nothing anti cop nor anything anti liberal or anti homeless.... it is nothing more than pointing out more of the hypocrisy that runs rampant in society today.


    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    I thought your post had a distinct anti-hell bent!

    Anyway, I agree that the coffee shop owner exercised Liberty that I'm glad he had by tossing the cop. I just wish he hadn't. Also, I agree that news agencies should give as much attention to OCers being ejected as to cops so treated.

    Maybe this story will grow legs and walk in that direction. (Yeah, I know. Hopeless optimism.)

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    sounds like the man is a bumbling idiot. I hope he gets robbed and the police take about 45 minutes to respond. It's one level of stupidity to kick out a law abiding citizen with a gun but a leo is just a tad further. Both are pretty dumb don't get me wrong but a cop? really? Most anti propaganda uses the police as a reason for total disarmament. what about fire fighters. and EMT's maybe he should ban them to. Fire fighters have Axe's !!!!! and really dangerous high pressure fire extinguishers.
    HOOAH?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    25sierraman wrote:
    sounds like the man is a bumbling idiot. I hope he gets robbed and the police take about 45 minutes to respond. It's one level of stupidity to kick out a law abiding citizen with a gun but a leo is just a tad further. Both are pretty dumb don't get me wrong but a cop? really? Most anti propaganda uses the police as a reason for total disarmament. what about fire fighters. and EMT's maybe he should ban them to. Fire fighters have Axe's !!!!! and really dangerous high pressure fire extinguishers.
    Actually I have more respect for a person who stands by his beliefs and tosses out anyone OC'ing, regardless of if they are wearing a uniform or not, than I do for a business that says ordinary citizens can't OC but cops can. At least the man is consistent in his beliefs.

    Now... I have no clue if that particular cafe owner(s) ever tossed out a citizen legally carrying a gun...... but I surmise that if they had the balls to toss out a cop an ordinary citizen wouldn't fare any better.

    Is it wise to toss out folks legally carrying guns (whether OC/CC... LE or not)? Of course not... but it is the property owner's RIGHT to do so. And, speaking just for me right now, if I believe that RIGHTS are to be considered the law of the land then I must support all the rights of everyone .... regardless of what I might think of how they exercise those rights.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Regardless of whether it was a good idea for the owner to toss the cop, I'm sick of the "What would you do if the cops didn't come?" nonsense.
    • Police have no legal duty to protect individuals.
    • Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
    • Police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals.
    When your life is in danger RIGHT NOW, protect YOURSELF or don't get protected AT ALL.

    What of course makes this even more distasteful is the repeated use of this impotent threat by those seeking to defend cops who didn't drink a cup of coffee, but who committed the most egregious civil rights violations and even violent crimes.

    Don't tell me you won't do something you don't have to do and in any case CAN'T do, if I complain when you commit a crime or a civil tort against me.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    I'd rather have a gun than a cop.

    I'd rather have a cop than nothing.

    It is unwise to make cops feel unwelcome. You may only increase your chance of dying in a crime from .01000% to .01005%, but making the cops feel unwelcome probably has such an effect. Some (not many) would be deliberately slow in responding to a call for help (not to mention the possibility of a BG changing his mind because a cop is present).

    When seconds count, the cops are usually minutes away, but doesn't it make sense to promote the possibility that they are already there?

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    I'd rather have a gun than a cop.

    I'd rather have a cop than nothing.

    It is unwise to make cops feel unwelcome.
    In most immediate threat situations a cop IS "nothing", LITERALLY. He's not going to be there.

    Some people think it's unwise to have a gun.

    "Kiss my behind because otherwise I'll threaten not to do something I don't have to and CAN'T do." doesn't work on me.

    You couldn't make a more impotent threat if you threatened not to keep trilobites out of my swimming pool.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member 25sierraman's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    I'd rather have a gun than a cop.

    I'd rather have a cop than nothing.

    It is unwise to make cops feel unwelcome. You may only increase your chance of dying in a crime from .01000% to .01005%, but making the cops feel unwelcome probably has such an effect. Some (not many) would be deliberately slow in responding to a call for help (not to mention the possibility of a BG changing his mind because a cop is present).

    When seconds count, the cops are usually minutes away, but doesn't it make sense to promote the possibility that they are already there?
    I agree with eye 95
    HOOAH?

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    eye95 wrote:
    I just heard this story on Fox News.
    Do you have a link to a video or written article so we can see it?

    ETA- found a blog mention with a link to a CNN video on the subject.
    http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/...-cop-makes-cnn
    President/ Founding Member
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    www.laopencarry.org

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    If you kick out people just for having a gun it might be hypocritical to not kick out someone just for having a badge also. If he really believes that someone with a weapon is bound to snap and go on a shooting spree, there are no laws of physics that prevent someone from impersonating a cop who then deciding to shoot up a coffee shop, nor are there even laws of physics that prevent an actual cop from suddenly deciding that it would be fun to shoot up a coffee shop.

    Besides, depending on his crowd of customers and coworkers he might be right about it upsetting them to have a uniformed cop in the place. The badge might be more upsetting to them than the gun. For instance, if his average customer and coworker is a drug dealer, it might make them not feel safe to have a uniformed police officer in the coffee shop with them. If I was a drug dealer trying to ply my trade in a coffee shop a cop would definitely make me feel at least slightly uncomfortable.

    It is the shop keepers own loss that he is telling police and/or armed citizens they cannot be there. Sounds like a place a criminal would love to know about. A criminal can have free reign there since there won't be any armed resistance.

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    Equal treatment for all!

    While I dissapprove of OCers being denied service anywhere while they're carrying I do believe that the rule should should be applied equally. If John Q. Public cant do so then it should apply to LEOs as well. They're not special. Contrary to what they might think, they're civilians too. Maybe the ones who're anti OC will change their minds if the anti-OC treatment gets applied to them on a regular basis.
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    A video showing the individuals in the story (co-owner, policeman and citizen who thanked him),FOX News citation, the citizens blog about the incident from her perspectiveand others:

    http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Portland-officer-shown-the-door-at-anarchist-cafe-95584079.html(w/ video)

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/04...d-coffee-shop/(FOX)

    www.corneliaseigneur.com (Note: site not accessible now)

    http://www.statesmanjournal.com/arti...ficer-to-leave

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/ne.../posts?page=73

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Having lived in and around Maryland during the 1980's and '90's. I can tell you that, at least according to the MD Attorney General, the firearms and nightsticks of police DO, IN FACT, jump out of holsters and shoot or beat innocent people. This bizarre circumstance happened so many times that the USDOJ and the FBI initiated a formal investigation in the late-90's to try and figure it out... </sarcasm>

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...%28Maryland%29



    With regards to "what would you do if the police don't show up", according to the Seattle police department, the average response time or a "high priority" call in Seattle somewhere around 7 minutes. By that time, any armed robber is going to be out the door an down the road with his bag of schwag.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/347249_police14.html

    Also, I remind you all of Warren v. District of Columbia", wherein the US Supreme court ruled that police have no duty to provide security of protection for individuals. What do you do if the police don't show up? Nothing. Because the courts have ruled that they are NOT liable.

    This same ruling has even been delivered by the WA courts in "Harvey v. County of Snohomish SNOPAC":

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-...s/1168172.html


    And after seeing the behavior of some of the LEOs at the infamous WTO-Seattle event in 1999 (The Battle in Seattle), where it is speculated that MOST of the "anarchists" engaged in mayhem were, in fact, government agent provocateurs, like at the 2007 SPP protests in Montebello Quebec, it should come as no surprise that law-abiding tree-huggers and vegans would not feel safe around "law enforcement" officers.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/347249_police14.html


    The Seattle police have a long history of brazen indifference to citizens who are victims of crime, wrongful imprisonment, mistaken identity, flagrant racism, and police brutality, and have been the target of investigations, lawsuits and media stories for years:

    http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...ped_arrest.php

    http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/006637.html

    http://www.rainiervalleypost.com/?p=7713

    http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/3...kes_ex_seattle

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200...in-washington/

    http://injusticeinseattle.blogspot.c...al-policy.html


    What is essentially comes down to is if you're a peaceful protester, or a "brown person", you're running a pretty high probability of experiencing police brutality in WA. And if you are the victim of a violent crime, you have a pretty high probability of being ignored...


    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Deanimator wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    I'd rather have a gun than a cop.

    I'd rather have a cop than nothing.

    It is unwise to make cops feel unwelcome.
    In most immediate threat situations a cop IS "nothing", LITERALLY. He's not going to be there.

    Some people think it's unwise to have a gun.

    "Kiss my behind because otherwise I'll threaten not to do something I don't have to and CAN'T do." doesn't work on me.

    You couldn't make a more impotent threat if you threatened not to keep trilobites out of my swimming pool.
    I notice that you chopped out a part of my post that would have addressed part of your answer.

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    yale wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    I just heard this story on Fox News.
    Do you have a link to a video or written article so we can see it?

    ETA- found a blog mention with a link to a CNN video on the subject.
    http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/...-cop-makes-cnn
    I used my DVR to type the precise text of the report I heard.

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    I should have known that this thread would attract the blind drum-beating of LEO-bashing. Yawn. How about you keep it to your LEO-bashing threads?

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    I notice that you chopped out a part of my post that would have addressed part of your answer.
    So then does that apply ONLY to coffee shops? How about hardware stores, book stores and beauty parlors? Are there going to CONSTANTLY be cops in those places? If not, why would the owner of any of those take the cops' IMPOTENT threat of not "protecting" THEM any more seriously than he would take an IMPOTENT threat not to protect a coffee shop?

    It's all the same hot air you get whenever somebody has the temerity to suggest that cops shouldn't stomp barmaids, beat old men handcuffed to wheelchairs or operate home invasion, burglary and kidnapping rings. "If you don't serve me coffee, I won't 'protect' you!" is just as empty a threat as "If you don't let me sap your grandpa down, I won't 'protect' you!"

    That cop isn't going to "protect" you REGARDLESS.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    I should have known that this thread would attract the blind drum-beating of LEO-bashing. Yawn. How about you keep it to your LEO-bashing threads?
    How about you give up the ludicrous fairy story of "police protection" of individuals?

    It ranks right up there with Lysenko's "twig fodder" in terms of sheer BS.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    It sounds like something they'd do in Oregon.

    I was stationed up there when I was in the USMC during the time the Rashneesh (sp?) were building their ranch in Antelope, OR (early '80's). They bought bars in Portland and painted them purple, on the outside.

    Oregon is a beautiful State, but some of the residents there are WEIRD! Not all...but some!

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    While the owner is certainly within his rights to refuse business and service to anyone not in the protected groups, it still strikes me as silly and foolish.

    It would be nice to hear about pro-gun businesses (other than gun stores) from time to time.

    I think there's a pro-gun restaurant over in the Seattle-area which strongly supports OC. Businesses like these should be getting more support from the gun community (assuming reasonable quality/prices).

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    cm2624 wrote:
    What will this mental midget say if a criminal barges in with a gun to rob the place?
    Give him a flower, explain how much he understands the BG's plight, and turn Stockholm on him
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    rugerdon wrote:
    It sounds like something they'd do in Oregon.

    I was stationed up there when I was in the USMC during the time the Rashneesh (sp?) were building their ranch in Antelope, OR (early '80's). They bought bars in Portland and painted them purple, on the outside.

    Oregon is a beautiful State, but some of the residents there are WEIRD! Not all...but some!
    Mostly the freaks from California or their descendants.

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