Incident yesterday at Ben's Loan in Renton

Ruby · Jun 5, 2010

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First let me say I was not involved and was not there when this happened so take it for what it is worth. I stopped by Ben's Loan to get some ammo on the way to Champion Arms. I was talking with one of the guys behind the counter. I was there a couple of hours after this happened. He said a young man came in to buy some ammo and proceeded to start loading his mags right there at the counter in the store. The guy was open carrying. The counter guy told him to take it outside, not to do that in the store. So the kid takes it to the counter up front and was asked to leave the store, which he did. From what I gather, he then continued to load mags or handle his gun outside in full view of the public. He then went back in the store and asked for a bag to put his things in. Don't know what things. He then went back outside and headed for a local park. The employee I spoke with said he had 2 guns. By this time, 3 concerned citizens called Renton PD, who came and took him away. The store employee said the guy was arrested. I don't know about that, he may have just been detained. Employees of Ben's were still upset about the incident when I was there. I know it's sketchy and second hand, but the employees I have dealt with there are pretty reputable people. Obviously whatever the kid was doing alarmed a number of people. The employee I spoke with did not want to talk much about it. The young man should not have done that for sure, but I wonder if he actually did something wrong or if there was an overreation by many people. That on top of talking with 3 people against OC. What a day. On a positive note, the Ben's employee I spoke with is interested in coming to our meet n' greets. I will be giving him the particulars later today. I also wore my "Starbucks" T shirt to the range and after and got many positive response, no negative ones. Gave several people Flanders007 phone number, with his permission of course and he got some new orders. I think this particular T shirt is a good PR item for this group. Went to eat lunch at a Taco Time and a lady asked me about it and I had the opportunity to enlighten her about OC, even though I was not OCing at the time. Sorry this is so long; wanted to get this out and get some comments back. Thanks!

sudden valley gunner · Jun 5, 2010

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Ruby wrote:

First let me say I was not involved and was not there when this happened so take it for what it is worth. I stopped by Ben's Loan to get some ammo on the way to Champion Arms. I was talking with one of the guys behind the counter. I was there a couple of hours after this happened. He said a young man came in to buy some ammo and proceeded to start loading his mags right there at the counter in the store. The guy was open carrying. The counter guy told him to take it outside, not to do that in the store. So the kid takes it to the counter up front and was asked to leave the store, which he did. From what I gather, he then continued to load mags or handle his gun outside in full view of the public. He then went back in the store and asked for a bag to put his things in. Don't know what things. He then went back outside and headed for a local park. The employee I spoke with said he had 2 guns. By this time, 3 concerned citizens called Renton PD, who came and took him away. The store employee said the guy was arrested. I don't know about that, he may have just been detained. Employees of Ben's were still upset about the incident when I was there. I know it's sketchy and second hand, but the employees I have dealt with there are pretty reputable people. Obviously whatever the kid was doing alarmed a number of people. The employee I spoke with did not want to talk much about it. The young man should not have done that for sure, but I wonder if he actually did something wrong or if there was an overreation by many people. That on top of talking with 3 people against OC. What a day. On a positive note, the Ben's employee I spoke with is interested in coming to our meet n' greets. I will be giving him the particulars later today. I also wore my "Starbucks" T shirt to the range and after and got many positive response, no negative ones. Gave several people Flanders007 phone number, with his permission of course and he got some new orders. I think this particular T shirt is a good PR item for this group. Went to eat lunch at a Taco Time and a lady asked me about it and I had the opportunity to enlighten her about OC, even though I was not OCing at the time. Sorry this is so long; wanted to get this out and get some comments back. Thanks!

Sounds like a goof or someone ignorant of gun edicate.

What a prosecutor would have to prove is if he had intent, to warrant alarm.

The gun shop has all the legal rights to boot him out and trespass him and if he came back he definately can be arrested then.

BigDave · Jun 5, 2010

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Renton uses Crime Reports.com to post crimes in their area and well I am not finding any report as to a weapon offense thus far.

http://rentonwa.gov/government/default.aspx?id=26562

1005 S 2nd St Renton, WA

If such an incident occurred, he would have been so wrong and I feel they would be found guilty of RCW 9.41.270(1)

With handling his weapon and loading magazines in a store or outside a store in open view of all to see could be consider warranting alarm and it was intended.

OlGutshotWilly · Jun 5, 2010

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BigDave wrote:

Renton uses Crime Reports.com to post crimes in their area and well I am not finding any report as to a weapon offense thus far.

http://rentonwa.gov/government/default.aspx?id=26562

1005 S 2nd St Renton, WA

If such an incident occurred, he would have been so wrong and I feel they would be found guilty of RCW 9.41.270(1)

With handling his weapon and loading magazines in a store or outside a store in open view of all to see could be consider warranting alarm and it was intended.

This is what I would have thought as well. It is my understanding of 9.41.170 that just openly carrying your weapon is not considered warranting alarm, as has been discussed on here in many posts citing case law.

When you take your weapon to hand in public you had better have a reason to be defending yourself or others. Anything less than that, I would expect to be construed as to constitute warranting alarm in others.

p2a1x7 · Jun 5, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Sounds like a goof or someone ignorant of gun edicate.

What a prosecutor would have to prove is if he had intent, to warrant alarm.

The gun shop has all the legal rights to boot him out and trespass him and if he came back he definately can be arrested then.

Wouldn't the prosecutor just have to prove that his actions warranted alarm? I thought intent doesn't have much to do with it. Having a holstered gun doesn't warrant alarm, loading your mags in front of everyone might (at least that's what the prosecutor will have to prove).

Ruby · Jun 5, 2010

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p2a1x7 wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

Sounds like a goof or someone ignorant of gun edicate.

What a prosecutor would have to prove is if he had intent, to warrant alarm.

The gun shop has all the legal rights to boot him out and trespass him and if he came back he definately can be arrested then.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't the prosecutor just have to prove that his actions warranted alarm? I thought intent doesn't have much to do with it. Having a holstered gun doesn't warrant alarm, loading your mags in front of everyone might (at least that's what the prosecutor will have to prove).

This is exactly what I am confused about. My chiropractor said she spoke with a Seattle LEO and he told her that all it takes is a phone call from a frightened citizen(you do not have to be doing anything wrong) and the police will come and either tell you to put it away, or they will detain you or arrest you. You do not have to be intimidating or alarming anyone, it's how the public views you. This is basically what Dave Workman says in his book on Washington gun rights and responsibilities. I told her I didn't think that was correct, that it depends on the person 's intent. When I read the appropriate RCW concerning OC, and from what I have learned from you guys here on the forum, you cannot be arrested for OC if you are not intimidating or alarming anyone. IMO too much is vague and I would like to see this RCW made much clearer for OCers and the general public. Most of us know what kind of behaviour would be considered intimidating or alarming but the general public doesn't seem to, and from what I have read, even some LEOs don't know. I was under the impression that OC is okay as long as your behavior doesn't warrant alarm. I don't see how any of us could be held accountable for someone's irrational fear of guns. The kid was acting in an unappropriate way for sure, but I tend to think that the problem was his behavior and not the fact that he was OCing. I don't mean to drag this on, but I am getting conflicting opinions and I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this so I don't get myself in any trouble just because I happen to be OCing.

G20-IWB24/7 · Jun 5, 2010

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Leave your gun in your holster while you are in public, PERIOD.

(Unless you are using it to defend yourself, etc...)

Keep your hand away from the grip while in public

(I will often-times rest my elbow on the rear of the gun---like an armrest--- especially if I'm in a crowded area, to assist in retention without making it look like I'm about to draw down on someone, but other than that, I leave my gun alone it it's holster.)

Follow these simple guidelines, and you should never run into a situation where a police officer or otherwise would be able to come up with Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) of a violation of RCW 9.41.270 or any other possible crime.

-G20

gogodawgs · Jun 5, 2010

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Ruby wrote:

This is exactly what I am confused about. My chiropractor said she spoke with a Seattle LEO and he told her that all it takes is a phone call from a frightened citizen(you do not have to be doing anything wrong) and the police will come and either tell you to put it away, or they will detain you or arrest you. You do not have to be intimidating or alarming anyone, it's how the public views you. This is basically what Dave Workman says in his book on Washington gun rights and responsibilities. I told her I didn't think that was correct, that it depends on the person 's intent. When I read the appropriate RCW concerning OC, and from what I have learned from you guys here on the forum, you cannot be arrested for OC if you are not intimidating or alarming anyone. IMO too much is vague and I would like to see this RCW made much clearer for OCers and the general public. Most of us know what kind of behaviour would be considered intimidating or alarming but the general public doesn't seem to, and from what I have read, even some LEOs don't know. I was under the impression that OC is okay as long as your behavior doesn't warrant alarm. I don't see how any of us could be held accountable for someone's irrational fear of guns. The kid was acting in an unappropriate way for sure, but I tend to think that the problem was his behavior and not the fact that he was OCing. I don't mean to drag this on, but I am getting conflicting opinions and I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this so I don't get myself in any trouble just because I happen to be OCing.

RCW 9.41.270

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

First, LEO do not give legal advice. A friend of a friend.... this is how, what I refer to as 'serial misinformation' continues in this area. While the pertinent RCW is not the best, it is what we deal with and does have 2 specifics to keep in mind.

1) "in a manner ,under circumstances, and at a time and place..."

* 'manner' ~ keep it holstered, don't fiddle with it (See Spencer or Casad)

* 'circumstances' ~be polite, be courteous, be kind, be professional (see Spencer or Casad)

* 'time and place' ~ near a closed store, late at night (see Spencer or Casad)

2) "either manifests an intent to intimidate...or...that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

* 'intent to intimidate ~ don't go get into arguments or try to coerce an argument

* 'warrants alarm for the safety of other persons' ~ keep it in the holster, do not handle the firearm, 'warrant' has a different meaning than to 'cause' alarm, there needs to be specific articulable reasons why the safety of another would be compromised.

While there are still some LEO and prosecutors (see Vancouver) that need to understand that a properly holstered handgun is not in violation of 9.41.270, for the most part of you go about your life and daily routine no differently than if you were carrying a cell phone holster, you will be without problems.

Will people look, certainly. Will people ask questions, sometimes. Will someone call in a WWAG (woman with a gun), maybe. Will LEO approach you, perhaps. Do you have to answer questions, maybe. (Am I being detained? Am I free to go?) If they arrest you for simply OCing a properly holstered handgun with no bad behavior, highly unlikely. (May be a good violation of your rights and a nice payday if they do.)

These are my opinions, I have been carrying for most of the last year now. I have had no issues.

Notice; IANAL, although I slept at a Holiday Inn last night!

Ruby · Jun 5, 2010

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gogodawgs wrote:

Ruby wrote:

This is exactly what I am confused about. My chiropractor said she spoke with a Seattle LEO and he told her that all it takes is a phone call from a frightened citizen(you do not have to be doing anything wrong) and the police will come and either tell you to put it away, or they will detain you or arrest you. You do not have to be intimidating or alarming anyone, it's how the public views you. This is basically what Dave Workman says in his book on Washington gun rights and responsibilities. I told her I didn't think that was correct, that it depends on the person 's intent. When I read the appropriate RCW concerning OC, and from what I have learned from you guys here on the forum, you cannot be arrested for OC if you are not intimidating or alarming anyone. IMO too much is vague and I would like to see this RCW made much clearer for OCers and the general public. Most of us know what kind of behaviour would be considered intimidating or alarming but the general public doesn't seem to, and from what I have read, even some LEOs don't know. I was under the impression that OC is okay as long as your behavior doesn't warrant alarm. I don't see how any of us could be held accountable for someone's irrational fear of guns. The kid was acting in an unappropriate way for sure, but I tend to think that the problem was his behavior and not the fact that he was OCing. I don't mean to drag this on, but I am getting conflicting opinions and I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this so I don't get myself in any trouble just because I happen to be OCing.

Click to expand...

RCW 9.41.270

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

First, LEO do not give legal advice. A friend of a friend.... this is how, what I refer to as 'serial misinformation' continues in this area. While the pertinent RCW is not the best, it is what we deal with and does have 2 specifics to keep in mind.

1) "in a manner ,under circumstances, and at a time and place..."

* 'manner' ~ keep it holstered, don't fiddle with it (See Spencer or Casad)

* 'circumstances' ~be polite, be courteous, be kind, be professional (see Spencer or Casad)

* 'time and place' ~ near a closed store, late at night (see Spencer or Casad)

2) "either manifests an intent to intimidate...or...that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

* 'intent to intimidate ~ don't go get into arguments or try to coerce an argument

* 'warrants alarm for the safety of other persons' ~ keep it in the holster, do not handle the firearm, 'warrant' has a different meaning than to 'cause' alarm, there needs to be specific articulable reasons why the safety of another would be compromised.

While there are still some LEO and prosecutors (see Vancouver) that need to understand that a properly holstered handgun is not in violation of 9.41.270, for the most part of you go about your life and daily routine no differently than if you were carrying a cell phone holster, you will be without problems.

Will people look, certainly. Will people ask questions, sometimes. Will someone call in a WWAG (woman with a gun), maybe. Will LEO approach you, perhaps. Do you have to answer questions, maybe. (Am I being detained? Am I free to go?) If they arrest you for simply OCing a properly holstered handgun with no bad behavior, highly unlikely. (May be a good violation of your rights and a nice payday if they do.)

These are my opinions, I have been carrying for most of the last year now. I have had no issues.

Notice; IANAL, although I slept at a Holiday Inn last night!

Thank you, Gogodawgs. I have read that several times and I understand it (mostly), it's just all these opinions floating around; they're like noses, everyone has one. Different interpretations, I guess. BTW, what does IANAL mean? I have seen it before, but haven't a clue. Enlighten me, please.

gogodawgs · Jun 5, 2010

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IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer...

Yes there are different views, thoughts on the issue (as there is with any issue). I can say from experience, I have carried in full and plain view of several police officers from multiple departments (SPD, WSP, FWPD, KPD, CCSO) and have never had an issue.

ak56 · Jun 5, 2010

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IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer

And Gogodawgs, great explanation of the RCW!

Bookman · Jun 5, 2010

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IANAL = I am not a lawyer

Ruby · Jun 5, 2010

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gogodawgs wrote:

IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer...

Yes there are different views, thoughts on the issue (as there is with any issue). I can say from experience, I have carried in full and plain view of several police officers from multiple departments (SPD, WSP, FWPD, KPD, CCSO) and have never had an issue.

Thanks, Gogodawgs and everyone else. I really appreciate the education I am getting from you guys. I won't live longer enough to make all the mistakes to learn all of this on my own! LOL BTW, I finally bought a voice recorder, got a good deal on it at Staples. It now goes everywhere I go. Just in case. I am thinking of OCing on my own tomorrow morning at my local Starbucks. I'll let you know how it goes.

gogodawgs · Jun 5, 2010

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Ruby wrote:

gogodawgs wrote:

IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer...

Yes there are different views, thoughts on the issue (as there is with any issue). I can say from experience, I have carried in full and plain view of several police officers from multiple departments (SPD, WSP, FWPD, KPD, CCSO) and have never had an issue.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Gogodawgs and everyone else. I really appreciate the education I am getting from you guys. I won't live longer enough to make all the mistakes to learn all of this on my own! LOL BTW, I finally bought a voice recorder, got a good deal on it at Staples. It now goes everywhere I go. Just in case. I am thinking of OCing on my own tomorrow morning at my local Starbucks. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ruby, you will be fine. You may be more of a curiousity because you are a woman. However, I know you can answer the questions and you will be fine!

sudden valley gunner · Jun 5, 2010

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You'll be fine Ruby, the great thing about this site is you now have a huge network of support in the unlikely event something does happen.

Have a great OC experience, let us know how it goes.

There more females that open carry than post online. Tyguys's wife does and MetalHead's wife does too and not just to gatherings she did carry to the meet today.

Ruby · Jun 5, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

You'll be fine Ruby, the great thing about this site is you now have a huge network of support in the unlikely event something does happen.

Have a great OC experience, let us know how it goes.

There more females that open carry than post online. Tyguys's wife does and MetalHead's wife does too and not just to gatherings she did carry to the meet today.

Thanks for all the support, guys, it means a lot. I'm taking it one step at a time. BTW how did the meet go today? I thought about coming but I live in Renton and it's about an hour and a half drive according to Mapquest.I have to say that I think you guys (and gals) are some of the nicest people I have ever met. You all have made my introduction to OC very positive. I will let you know how it goes tomorrow at Starbucks.

.45ACPaddy · Jun 6, 2010

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Guy sounds like an idiot.

I only handle my Glock at the range when shooting and at home when cleaning or practicing drawing from the holster, unloaded in both cases.

Hope he's not on this site.

Ruby · Jun 6, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

You'll be fine Ruby, the great thing about this site is you now have a huge network of support in the unlikely event something does happen.

Have a great OC experience, let us know how it goes.

There more females that open carry than post online. Tyguys's wife does and MetalHead's wife does too and not just to gatherings she did carry to the meet today.

Just got back from OCing at my local Starbucks. Nothing happened. Absolutely nothing happened. I went in, got my coffee, found a table, took my jacket off, turned my recorder on, and sat down. I was there for probably an hour and a half, drinking my coffee and reading the paper. Most people didn't seem to notice, no one spoke to me about my gun. I was nervous at first, but when nothing happened, I relaxed and enjoyed being there. I'm sure people saw my gun (I did not try to show it off) as it's hard to hide a.45. I am greatly encouraged and relieved at the non-reaction of people. I know that there will be times when people will say something and that's okay. I plan on answering any questions as honestly as I can without being confrontational. In retrospect, the only thing I did wrong was choosing a table where my back was to the main entrance. I did occasionally look around to maintain situational awareness and I was uncomfortable not facing the door. Won't do that again. I am finding that I prefer open carry to carrying concealed in my purse. My holster holds my gun comfortably and I like having it on me rather than in my purse. Due to the nature of my work, I won't be able to OC as much as I would like, but at least I am over my initial jitters about it. Thanks to all for your encouragement and support. I will see some of you on Saturday in FW.

gogodawgs · Jun 6, 2010

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Congrats Ruby! It is liberating, and for the most part, nothing happens....

Jayd1981 · Jun 6, 2010

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I have taken my pistol out in a store before. It was when I was looking for a holster for my LCP. After I found a few possibilities, I took them to the gun counter to see if they had a LCP to try the fit with but they didn't have any. In my situation, I first asked the person at the gun counter if it was ok to remove my pistol from my pocket to try it in the holsters. They had no problem with that as long as I cleared it immediately.

There are senarios where you might want to take out your pistol without there being a threat, but first talking to those running the business is a great first step.

Incident yesterday at Ben's Loan in Renton

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