Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 55

Thread: Granite School Police

  1. #1
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    I was at 7-11 getting a refill when two officer in the corner came over and asked me if my firearm was loaded I replied yes. They said I could not carry my firearm loaded in Utah that it must be concealed.

    They then asked me for my picture ID I replied that I did not need to present it but would comply with Utah law and provide my Name DOB and Address.

    They stated I needed to have my CCW again I corrected them even though I have my CCW I did not need to produce it. They argued with me some more.

    I asked if I was under arrest he said "No" I asked if I was free to go He said "No"

    Here is my citation look at it and see if you see the Humor in the citation.

    Here is a link to the Citation

    http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/a...hoolpolice.jpg
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alpine, Utah
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    Humor in the citation: 1) We have the same birthday. 2) They essentially and blatantly, ignored - if not broke - the law by naming those three violations against you.

    My wife, however, found no humor and, again, expressed her fear about me carrying when we move to Utah next week, instead of here in Idaho where nearly no one cares. She said, "While I know a few great officers, some are just stupid and piss me off in Utah. None of the cops here care!"

    (Edit: we're not cop-haters, I swear. I actually would love to be an Officer!)

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    wow... so where are you going to go with this?

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alpine, Utah
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    WAIT! I found another oddity in the citation. Your DL number! failure to produce DL, yet there it is!

  5. #5
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ogden, Utah, USA
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    This is the third or forth recent problem in the WV/kearns areas. I just moved from there and had absolutely no problems. I thinks they had some training on how to get us or at least waste our time.

    How about getting media involved? I know Fox has done stories before on OC and always seem to have a positive output.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Gunsfreak I am surprised you answered any questions. A simple "I have no intentions of answering any of your questions" would have been sufficient. I do feel an IA complaint coming on though. If the story is as you say you'll have no problem getting out of the citation.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Another interesting thing is the code he cited is the one that defines loaded and unloaded, not one of the other codes that actually indicates what the particular crime is. You were also on private property (7-11) not a public street or sidewalk so still no crime:celebrate. You have a valid permit so even if you were on a public street or sidewalk with your gun loaded, still no crime:celebrate. With no crime, no probale cause to ask for ID and cite you for not providing it. What a dork! I doubt this one even makes it past the prosecutor. Still, be sure to file a complaint so the misinformed officer gets the education he needs!They are probably so used to pushing around theschool kids that they were offended you would challenge the illigitimate use of authority.You were stopped and detained without cause, and mere suspicion you might have been comitting a crime is not cause. Go get em'.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    IA Filed with Sgt Orton tonight Meeting with LT on Monday.
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alpine, Utah
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    IA Filed with Sgt Orton tonight Meeting with LT on Monday.
    Newbie question: What's "IA" stand for?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Good question Porter N, It stands for Internal Affairs.

  11. #11
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ogden, Utah, USA
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    Porter N wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    IA Filed with Sgt Orton tonight Meeting with LT on Monday.
    Newbie question: What's "IA" stand for?
    Internal Affairs

  12. #12
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Beat you to it younggun20 by one minute!

  13. #13
    Regular Member younggun20's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ogden, Utah, USA
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    Rottie wrote:
    Beat you to it younggun20 by one minute!
    Wow must have been one right after another. Yours wasn't there when I sent mine..

  14. #14
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    580

    Post imported post

    This is getting ridiculous. It may, indeed, be time to get the media involved. I open carried in the Wal-Mart on 5600 S and Redwood road for almost 3 hours today with no problems while my daughter was getting here hair done for her elementary school promotion ceremony. It's going to take the media, the DOJ and a good law suit to set these sorry excuses for public servants straight.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Agreed
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sandy, Utah, USA
    Posts
    215

    Post imported post

    Thanks for sharing this but perhaps you are sharing too much infomation such as, DOB.

    There might be some non Ocers on this national website. I would suggest to cross out all your vitals! Just a suggestion.


    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

  17. #17
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Lol it's public record but thank you for looking out for me
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sierra Vista, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    113

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Lol it's public record but thank you for looking out for me
    While it may be public record, it's usually better to at least make people look for it instead of just giving it out to everybody.

  19. #19
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    I was at 7-11 getting a refill when two officer in the corner came over and asked me if my firearm was loaded I replied yes. They said I could not carry my firearm loaded in Utah that it must be concealed.

    They then asked me for my picture ID I replied that I did not need to present it but would comply with Utah law and provide my Name DOB and Address.

    They stated I needed to have my CCW again I corrected them even though I have my CCW I did not need to produce it. They argued with me some more.

    I asked if I was under arrest he said "No" I asked if I was free to go He said "No"

    Here is my citation look at it and see if you see the Humor in the citation.

    Here is a link to the Citation

    http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/a...hoolpolice.jpg
    If you are carrying a gun "Utah loaded" on a public street (other than in or on your vehicle), then you are either carrying pursuant to a valid permit, OR you are in violation of the law.

    You are not required to carry your permit, but if you refuse to produce it or at least let the cops know you have a permit and they should check with BCI to confirm, then you can be properly cited for carry a loaded gun outside your vehicle on a public street.

    When you say your gun is loaded, do you mean "Utah loaded" (one in the chamber on a semi-auto), or do you mean merely a fully charged magazine?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sandy, Utah, USA
    Posts
    215

    Post imported post

    utbagpiper wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote: You are not required to carry your permit, but if you refuse to produce it or at least let the cops know you have a permit and they should check with BCI to confirm, then you can be properly cited for carry a loaded gun outside your vehicle on a public street.

    Charles
    Yes, I would have to agree with that, when asked if my gun is loaded, I would say yes, however, I am permitted to carry loaded in Utah because I have a CFP.

    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    West Jordan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    65

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    I was at 7-11 getting a refill when two officer in the corner came over and asked me if my firearm was loaded I replied yes.
    Aside from the humor that your Driver's License number appears on the same citation for failing to present DL I will agree with utbagpiper regarding presenting your permit.

    However I'm not sure if we follow the same reasoning. I would have suggested offering your permit after having admitted you were carrying a loaded firearm but I would also suggest that you refrain from providing any more information then you are required. (Your name and address)

    My firearm has a load indicator but if yours does not there is no method in which they could tell if it was loaded save asking you (which they did) or conducting a search which would not have been legal.

    You've definitely got several defenses here as has been outlined. You were on private property and not on a public street, you have a concealed firearm permit, etc. The other two are of course easy. The citation itself is evident that the officers couldn't even tell you which law you broke (since there is none) as they didn't write the code number.

    Let us know how it turns out. Shouldn't even need a lawyer for this one lol

  22. #22
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    Loaded one in the chamber and yes I do have a valid CWP I just don't always have it with me when I open carry
    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  23. #23
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Loaded one in the chamber and yes I do have a valid CWP I just don't always have it with me when I open carry
    I've got to be honest, I don't understand not telling the cops you have a permit. You do HAVE a permit to carry even if you are not carrying the permit on your person. And, if the gun is Utah loaded, then in most cases (outside your car and in a city) you are either carrying pursuant to a permit OR you are in violation of State law. Toss in school zones (as noted on another thread, we've been doing some work on this and I think most folks here would be shocked at just how difficult it is to avoid Utah school zones) and it is all but impossible to even OC unloaded legally without a permit. That the cops are probably as ignorant of all the schools as we are may well be a great blessing.

    It is, however, great that Utah law does not actually require us to carry our permit on our person. So if someone forgets his wallet or loses the permit, he is not SOL. Ditto if the permit is damaged in some way that a cop could claim it is no longer valid. (Ever try to get on an airplane these days with a DL or other ID that is separating or otherwise damaged?)

    Now, let me ask you this, do you want to spend time fighting a law that would require us to carry our permit with us? Or do you want to spend your time and energy working to actually materially improve our RKBA?

    If you want to "sterile carry" have a ball. But then do so in a manner and in locations where you don't need a permit to carry. If you are going to carry loaded and/or in school zones, then you need a permit under current law. And I see no good reason to be difficult in such situations. Hand the cop your permit, smile and assume he might just know the law well enough to hand your permit back to you with a simple, "Thank you." If he turns out to be a jerk, there will be plenty of time to be difficult later.

    Anyway, I, for one, would much rather spend my time working to fix our insane definition of school zones and getting permit-free carry (ala Alaska/Arizona) than fighting some bill to require us to carry our permits on our person.

    It is a bit like the current guns in "posted" churches law. The current penalty is not so harsh as to mess up your day if you make an honest mistake and carry into a church (or home) where your gun is not welcome. But rather than taking that as an excuse to violate the law (and just be rude regarding others' private property rights), we ought to obey the law and church/homeowner wishes. There is just nothing to be gained by giving anyone any legitimate reason to say the penalty needs to be stiffer.

    Similarly, the lack of legal requirement to carry a permit on your person is very nice. But it should not be abused just to be difficult. Even if you don't want to carry your permit, you really should just tell the cop you do have a permit to carry and he is free to look it up.

    My $0.02 worth.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kearns, Utah, USA
    Posts
    717

    Post imported post

    I told the officer indeed I had a valid permit just did not have the permit with me. They were never misled as to if I had a permit or not.

    If fact I gave them my DL number and told them I had a valid permit but not currently on my person. So please understand the police were not misled but were ignorant of Utah law which does not require me to carry my permit with me.

    The Granite officers were rude and ignorant of Utah law. All I wanted was to get my refill and leave they were the aggressors since their was no PC to make the stop.

    They were told several times indeed had a permit to carry my firearm and was in compliance with Utah law.

    They were misunderstood and misguided when told I could have a county officer familiar with Utah law respond they were offended and called Dispatch from the county to insure they would not respond.

    The Officer T Arnold refused to give me his badge number and the other officer stated he did not have to give me his badge number.

    I asked him several times if I was under arrest he stated "No" I asked if I was free to go he stated "No"

    These officer clearly violated my Civil Rights and were ignorant of Utah law. This is the misconceptions I wish to clear up so in the future the officers will better understand Utah law.


    Zach
    8014487574
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  25. #25
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    Well that is a bit different story than I had understood.

    In this case then, it sounds like you were correct and the officers need to be educated. My apologies for misunderstanding.

    I encourage you to also provide details of this case to AG Shurtleff and your State Legislators and the Governor's office.

    I would also encourage you to carry your permit whenever possible even though you are not legally required to do so. It avoids conflating two issues and allows us to focus on what I, at least, think is the more important issue: fully loaded OC pursuant to a permit. Hand a permit to the cop and the ONLY question that remains is: Is it legal to OC a fully loaded gun (perhaps even in a school zone) pursuant to a permit.

    We all know the answer to that is "yes." We need to get that issues fully resolved and THEN move on to issues like producing ID.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •