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Thread: Anyone Here Actually Carry at a School?

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
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    Does anyone here actually OC their pistol inside their kids school when they go pick 'em up?

    I've got 3 ankle-biters (5,4,2) which means I have a lot more trips in to drop the little ones off at the Preschool/Kindergarden classes ahead of me.

    I have my CPL. My pistols are registered with the state . So I'm legit but I'm wondering if I really want to start blazing the trail on carrying in a school considering the foam-at-the-mouth phobia people have when the words "gun" and "school" are mixed.

    Also, can the school make their own policy restricting your right to OC when you pick up your kids? I'm assuming that public school can not, and that private schools can, but what about charter schools? They are some type of hybrid public/private school, are they not?

    Any clarification is greatly appreciated.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    public schools cant i dont think.

    private schools,universities and colleges...of course they can(though i believe colleges and universities shouldnt be able to)

    i believe mikestilly has carried in his kid's school before,but im not sure.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  3. #3
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    I've OCed countless times in an elementary school. Theres a thread on here about it.

    ETA

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...highlight=shpd

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    Yup. High school.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Yep, Autosurgeon and I OC'd at Coloma HS in the auto shop but it was after hours and nobody was there. Doesn't really count.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Isthere anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

    ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is atax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    IsÂ*there anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

    ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is aÂ*tax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?
    237a

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    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    I have carried in the high school, to talk with the Principle, and to school board meeting without incident.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    Isthere anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

    ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is atax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?
    237a
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rtd...e=mcl-750-237a

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    I think so. Could someone please provide a cite?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    detroit_fan wrote:
    I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?
    The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I think so. Could someone please provide a cite?
    MCL 123.1101 Definitions.
    Sec. 1.
    As used in this act:
    (a) “Local unit of government” means a city, village, township, or county.
    (b) “Pistol” means that term as defined in section 222 of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being section 750.222 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    MCL123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.


    I think schools could ban CPL/OC, as "Schools" are not listed as a local unit of government.Â* Result would probably be "Trespassing" if you don't leave when asked; see Michigander's post above.

    Check the school's Board of Ed or Admin website.Â* They will tell you how they handle firearms.Â* Where I work Board Policy says something to the effect ofÂ* firearms are forbidden, then lists exceptions... the last exception being "possessed in accordance to state law".Â* And yes, I have OC'd at work, but I am very cautious.Â* As en employee they could change the rules and then prohibit me.Â* But as a citizen, my district apparently would need to permit you to OC... "as otherwise allowed by law"




    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I would have to say, with 123.1102, the absence of a law prohibiting otherwise, and with 28.425o, 750.234d and 750.237a that OC with a CPL on school grounds with school related functions is legal, and that they cannot ask you to leave. Private schools may be different.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I would have to say, with 123.1102, the absence of a law prohibiting otherwise, andÂ* with 28.425o, 750.234d and 750.237a that OC with a CPL on school grounds with school related functions is legal, and that they cannot ask you to leave. Private schools may be different.
    Just the messenger, but generally, schools are given a huge amount of leeway when it comes to the enforcement of laws. One example... reasonable suspicion instead of Probable Cause to search students.

    About 5 years ago, a parent of one of my students was charged and successfully convicted of MCL 750.170 (Disturbance of lawful meetings). She walked the halls during school hours without permission to be in the building.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigander wrote:
    detroit_fan wrote:
    I'm a little confused, canÂ*a public school ban OC or not?
    The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.
    This.

    School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

    Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

    But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

    Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    I Open Carry every Tuesday at Rankin Elementary

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    detroit_fan wrote:
    I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?
    The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.
    This.

    School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

    Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

    But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

    Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).
    Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

    ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    detroit_fan wrote:
    I'm a little confused, canÂ*a public school ban OC or not?
    The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.
    This.

    School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

    Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

    But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

    Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).
    Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

    ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?
    True, but many schools also have permissible hours, or other rules regarding entry (such as check-in at principal's or security office, mandatory visitor tags, etc.)

    Given that they are not pre-empted (in my interpretation, which I have independently verified with an atty friend), either way they can make rules against firearms and enforce them by escorting you off premises and serving notice of trespass.

    Most schools that are aware of OC are not fully aware of their own rights in the matter, however.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    detroit_fan wrote:
    I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?
    The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.
    This.

    School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

    Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

    But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

    Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).
    Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

    ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?
    True, but many schools also have permissible hours, or other rules regarding entry (such as check-in at principal's or security office, mandatory visitor tags, etc.)

    Given that they are not pre-empted (in my interpretation, which I have independently verified with an atty friend), either way they can make rules against firearms and enforce them by escorting you off premises and serving notice of trespass.

    Most schools that are aware of OC are not fully aware of their own rights in the matter, however.
    Allow me to interpret this differently.

    'Rules' are not the same as 'Laws'

    Thus, they do not necessarily need to be mentioned in 123 to be preempted by state law... the question is what 'laws' are being enforced.

    Public schools do not have 'laws' of their own that the can 'enforce' to the result of actual criminal punishment, and thus, I would argue that 123 is not relevant in that regard.

    The question is, when and if you are forced to leave, what laws, enforced by what legal entity, are being cited for your removal.

    While a 'school' may not be a local unit of government, a 'city' or 'township' police department would be the ones forcing you to leave.

    So then the only question becomes 'do public schools count as private property', which, if you have a dictionary handy, seems like a silly question to consider.

    ...This is just my brain spewing, but what say you all?

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    My suggestion would be to go to the district's website and find what you are looking for. Usually they will list the state law that corresponds with the action they will take. Look for what they will use to support their asking you to leave. My district says they will ask you to leave, then for reference lists the MCL at the bottom of the page; the MCL from which they believe that they derive their authority.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    My suggestion would be to go to the district's website and find what you are looking for. Usually they will list the state law that corresponds with the action they will take. Look for what they will use to support their asking you to leave. My district says they will ask you to leave, then for reference lists the MCL at the bottom of the page; the MCL from which they believe that they derive their authority.
    This is precisely the point I was making though... They aren't making their own laws, they are enforcing existing laws. And existing laws point to legal OC.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    My suggestion would be to go to the district's website and find what you are looking for. Usually they will list the state law that corresponds with the action they will take. Look for what they will use to support their asking you to leave. My district says they will ask you to leave, then for reference lists the MCL at the bottom of the page; the MCL from which they believe that they derive their authority.
    This is precisely the point I was making though... They aren't making their own laws, they are enforcing existing laws. And existing laws point to legal OC.
    If you are told to leave you must leave.

    It's public property, sure, but if you sat your ass in Granholm's office because it's "public property" you'll go to jail for trespass just the same.

    That's my point.

    If you're told to leave public property that's not open to the public, and you don't - you're trespassing.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    My suggestion would be to go to the district's website and find what you are looking for. Usually they will list the state law that corresponds with the action they will take. Look for what they will use to support their asking you to leave. My district says they will ask you to leave, then for reference lists the MCL at the bottom of the page; the MCL from which they believe that they derive their authority.
    This is precisely the point I was making though... They aren't making their own laws, they are enforcing existing laws. And existing laws point to legal OC.
    If you are told to leave you must leave.

    It's public property, sure, but if you sat your ass in Granholm's office because it's "public property" you'll go to jail for trespass just the same.

    That's my point.

    If you're told to leave public property that's not open to the public, and you don't - you're trespassing.
    Thanks.

    To clarify, I was not arguing a point [even though I said I was] so much as asking a question, which you answered.

    :celebrate

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    It's interesting that there is actually such a thing as public property that is not open to the public. Isn't that sort of the antithesis of public property? Just observing, nothing more...
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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