Anyone Here Actually Carry at a School?

The Expert · Jun 5, 2010

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Does anyone here actually OC their pistol inside their kids school when they go pick 'em up?

I've got 3 ankle-biters (5,4,2) which means I have a lot more trips in to drop the little ones off at the Preschool/Kindergarden classes ahead of me.

I have my CPL. My pistols are registered with the state :cuss:. So I'm legit but I'm wondering if I really want to start blazing the trail on carrying in a school considering the foam-at-the-mouth phobia people have when the words "gun" and "school" are mixed.

Also, can the school make their own policy restricting your right to OC when you pick up your kids? I'm assuming that public school can not, and that private schools can, but what about charter schools? They are some type of hybrid public/private school, are they not?

Any clarification is greatly appreciated.

lil_freak_66 · Jun 5, 2010

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public schools cant i dont think.

private schools,universities and colleges...of course they can(though i believe colleges and universities shouldnt be able to)

i believe mikestilly has carried in his kid's school before,but im not sure.

sprinklerguy28 · Jun 5, 2010

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I've OCed countless times in an elementary school. Theres a thread on here about it.

ETA

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=40511&forum_id=30&highlight=shpd

zigziggityzoo · Jun 5, 2010

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Yup. High school.

EM87 · Jun 5, 2010

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Yep, Autosurgeon and I OC'd at Coloma HS in the auto shop but it was after hours and nobody was there. Doesn't really count.

stainless1911 · Jun 5, 2010

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Isthere anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is atax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?

sprinklerguy28 · Jun 5, 2010

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stainless1911 wrote:

Is there anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is a tax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?

237a

ISMOID · Jun 5, 2010

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I have carried in the high school, to talk with the Principle, and to school board meeting without incident.

Bronson · Jun 5, 2010

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sprinklerguy28 wrote:

stainless1911 wrote:

Isthere anything specific you need to know besides 28.425o and 234d before going in?

ETA. It is my understanding that a public school may choose not to allow OC. Is this correct? If so, why? A school is atax funded government organisation, so why doesnt preemption cover this?

Click to expand...

237a

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rtdnhk55inntzvqo5jcvtg45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-237a

Bronson

detroit_fan · Jun 6, 2010

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I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?

stainless1911 · Jun 6, 2010

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I think so. Could someone please provide a cite?

Michigander · Jun 6, 2010

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detroit_fan wrote:

I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?

The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.

DrTodd · Jun 6, 2010

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stainless1911 wrote:

I think so. Could someone please provide a cite?

MCL 123.1101 Definitions.
Sec. 1.
As used in this act:
(a) “Local unit of government” means a city, village, township, or county.
(b) “Pistol” means that term as defined in section 222 of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being section 750.222 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

MCL123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.
A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

I think schools could ban CPL/OC, as "Schools" are not listed as a local unit of government. Result would probably be "Trespassing" if you don't leave when asked; see Michigander's post above.

Check the school's Board of Ed or Admin website. They will tell you how they handle firearms. Where I work Board Policy says something to the effect of firearms are forbidden, then lists exceptions... the last exception being "possessed in accordance to state law". And yes, I have OC'd at work, but I am very cautious. As en employee they could change the rules and then prohibit me. But as a citizen, my district apparently would need to permit you to OC... "as otherwise allowed by law"

stainless1911 · Jun 6, 2010

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I would have to say, with 123.1102, the absence of a law prohibiting otherwise, and with 28.425o, 750.234d and 750.237a that OC with a CPL on school grounds with school related functions is legal, and that they cannot ask you to leave. Private schools may be different.

DrTodd · Jun 6, 2010

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stainless1911 wrote:

I would have to say, with 123.1102, the absence of a law prohibiting otherwise, and with 28.425o, 750.234d and 750.237a that OC with a CPL on school grounds with school related functions is legal, and that they cannot ask you to leave. Private schools may be different.

Just the messenger, but generally, schools are given a huge amount of leeway when it comes to the enforcement of laws. One example... reasonable suspicion instead of Probable Cause to search students.

About 5 years ago, a parent of one of my students was charged and successfully convicted of MCL 750.170 (Disturbance of lawful meetings). She walked the halls during school hours without permission to be in the building.

zigziggityzoo · Jun 6, 2010

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Michigander wrote:

detroit_fan wrote:

I'm a little confused, can a public school ban OC or not?

Click to expand...

The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.

This.

School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).

jeremiahJohnson · Jun 6, 2010

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I Open Carry every Tuesday at Rankin Elementary

stainless1911 · Jun 6, 2010

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

Michigander wrote:

detroit_fan wrote:

I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?

Click to expand...

The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.

Click to expand...

This.

School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).

Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?

zigziggityzoo · Jun 7, 2010

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stainless1911 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

Michigander wrote:

detroit_fan wrote:

I'm a little confused, can a public school ban OC or not?

Click to expand...

The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.

Click to expand...

This.

School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).

Click to expand...

Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?

True, but many schools also have permissible hours, or other rules regarding entry (such as check-in at principal's or security office, mandatory visitor tags, etc.)

Given that they are not pre-empted (in my interpretation, which I have independently verified with an atty friend), either way they can make rules against firearms and enforce them by escorting you off premises and serving notice of trespass.

Most schools that are aware of OC are not fully aware of their own rights in the matter, however.

Evil Creamsicle · Jun 7, 2010

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

stainless1911 wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

Michigander wrote:

detroit_fan wrote:

I'm a little confused, cana public school ban OC or not?

Click to expand...

The question is who can they kick out and when. No laws are broken when a CPL holder OCs at a school. But unless you have some justification for going there, like dropping off your kid, voting, or maybe going to a meeting or something, there is a very good chance they can kick you out whether you are OCing or not. Most schools require visitors to check in at the office.

Click to expand...

This.

School districts are established by State Government, much like counties are. Thus, as they are not explicitly listed by MCL 123.1101 as a "Local unit of government" they are not preempted by MCL 123.1102.

Therefore, they may ask you to leave for OC.

But regardless, School districts are public property that is not open to the general public. You actually see this a lot. You can get into the capitol building, but you cannot enter legislator's offices, the actual floor where they vote, etc.

Since it's not open to the general public, they can ask you to leave at any time for any reason unless you have a legal right to be there (say, if you're voting in an election).

Click to expand...

Not anyone,(the general public) can just walk into a school, but as a parent, I can walk into my daughters school, in which case, I am Not the general public.

ill re read 123, but what do you say to my above response?

Click to expand...

True, but many schools also have permissible hours, or other rules regarding entry (such as check-in at principal's or security office, mandatory visitor tags, etc.)

Given that they are not pre-empted (in my interpretation, which I have independently verified with an atty friend), either way they can make rules against firearms and enforce them by escorting you off premises and serving notice of trespass.

Most schools that are aware of OC are not fully aware of their own rights in the matter, however.

Allow me to interpret this differently.

'Rules' are not the same as 'Laws'

Thus, they do not necessarily need to be mentioned in 123 to be preempted by state law... the question is what 'laws' are being enforced.

Public schools do not have 'laws' of their own that the can 'enforce' to the result of actual criminal punishment, and thus, I would argue that 123 is not relevant in that regard.

The question is, when and if you are forced to leave, what laws, enforced by what legal entity, are being cited for your removal.

While a 'school' may not be a local unit of government, a 'city' or 'township' police department would be the ones forcing you to leave.

So then the only question becomes 'do public schools count as private property', which, if you have a dictionary handy, seems like a silly question to consider.

...This is just my brain spewing, but what say you all?

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