Accidental Discharge

MarlboroLts5150 · Jun 6, 2010

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Phssthpok wrote:

MarlboroLts5150 wrote:

If you fail to properly maintain air pressure in your tires, and blow one out, is it an accident?, or is it negligence on your part to properly maintain your equipment?

Same applies to firearms. Can mechanical failure happen even when you properly maintain your firearm....yes it can. But the example you provided was not accidental, it was negligence.

Click to expand...

I'll grant your point about failure to maintain being negligence, however you are (deliberately?) overlooking one critical bit of data that I already posted:

The system that failed (fire control group) was in no way affected by the (alleged) 'negligence' of chambering his ammunition in the manner that he did. The only wear caused by such a chambering method IS ON THE EXTRACTOR (that flat piece of metal on the side) not the firing mechanism. The extractor in no way, shape or form is connected to, or operating in conjunction with ANY part of the fire control group.

To put it in similar terms to your tire analogy:

If you don't keep your tire pressure up and your transmission grenades on the freeway is it an accident or negligence.

That depends....when was the last time the fluid was checked?

And a car is different than a firearm. While a car a SEVERAL moving parts, a majority of them we can't see or get to thru regular maintenance. A firearm however, has only a few moving parts. All of which, thru proper maintenance, espically after firing, get a detailed cleaning and inspection. What caused the failure to the guy in your post, most likely could have been seen thru that kind of regular maintenence. The kind of wearon the parts thatfailed would (should?) have been noticed.

As tight as the tolerences are on semi-autos, espically in the slide assembly, excess wear on one part in that can cause other moving parts in the slide assembly to recieve excess wear. Once again, that would have been noticed thru regular, detailed maintenance.

Bikenut · Jun 7, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Judge away folks. You are not being helpful.

Click to expand...

Not being judgmental at all.. just pointing out that a gun going off when it wasn't intended to go off is a result of human negligence.

If the gun is an unsafe design even before the first prototype is made then the designer was negligent with his design.

If the design is safe but the manufacturer uses substandard materials then the manufacturer was negligent.

If the manufacturer used quality materials but substandard quality control in assembly then the manufacturer was negligent.

If the shipper allowed damage to occur during shipping then the shipper and/or packer was negligent.

If the seller didn't exercise due diligence in storing and handling before the sale and caused damage then the seller was negligent.

If the new owner didn't exercise due diligence in storing and handling plus keeping the gun maintained/inspected for wear then the new owner was negligent.

If the new owner didn't follow safety rules while handling the gun then the new owner was negligent.

........... You see... I'm not being judgmental about anyone who has experienced a ND... I am simply explaining that if the gun goes bang unexpectedly someone.. somewhere... was negligent in some manner. And it isn't always the person holding the gun at the time of the ND.

Click to expand...

Classifying every UD as an ND serves no useful purpose and is insulting to the person to whom the UD happens. I think the definitions above make a distinction that needs to be made. Using those definitions, an ND means the operator needs to change the way he handles his firearm. The danger from an AD should be mitigated by routine safe handling practices.

I suspect some folks have a problem with the word "negligent" itself because it has the negative connotation of guilt attached.

Insulting to the operator? Changing the name of something to protect the "feelings" of someone doesn't change the truth of it. And changing the name of something doesn't serve any useful purpose because a name change doesn't change the accountability of the one responsible.... although changing the name might make the one responsible "feel" better.

I'll say it again.... if the gun goes bang unexpectedly someone.. somewhere... was negligent in some manner. And it isn't always the person holding the gun at the time of the ND.

TehGruu · Jun 7, 2010

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The only NDs I've had have been once when I was a teenager and shooting my 12 gauge. I was going for the safety but brushed the trigger and boom. The gun was pointed downrange but I was shook up for a couple of days. After day 3 I got mack on the horse again. The second time was at a public range and I was winding down after shooting a lot of rounds. I thought I had unloaded and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. Same result as with the shotgun. Again this time this pistol was pointed downrange. Lesson learned. "Booger hook off the bang switch." Only 2 I've had and thankfully they were on a shooting range with the weapon pointed downrange. To this day since the last time I make it a point to keep my finger out of the trigger guard until I've decided to shoot. I even do this during paintball games.

-Gruu

Doug Huffman · Jun 7, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

Judge away folks. You are not being helpful.

"Helpful" is a sloppy euphemism for advancing an agenda (yours). Your agenda is not mine and I have no intention of being helpful to you but of trying to put a sharp point on some of the dullards around OCDO. It is my intention to be correct, conservative and right and not nice and helpful.

You do not need to respond or retort.

eye95 · Jun 7, 2010

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Bikenut wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Judge away folks. You are not being helpful.

Click to expand...

Not being judgmental at all.. just pointing out that a gun going off when it wasn't intended to go off is a result of human negligence.

If the gun is an unsafe design even before the first prototype is made then the designer was negligent with his design.

If the design is safe but the manufacturer uses substandard materials then the manufacturer was negligent.

If the manufacturer used quality materials but substandard quality control in assembly then the manufacturer was negligent.

If the shipper allowed damage to occur during shipping then the shipper and/or packer was negligent.

If the seller didn't exercise due diligence in storing and handling before the sale and caused damage then the seller was negligent.

If the new owner didn't exercise due diligence in storing and handling plus keeping the gun maintained/inspected for wear then the new owner was negligent.

If the new owner didn't follow safety rules while handling the gun then the new owner was negligent.

........... You see... I'm not being judgmental about anyone who has experienced a ND... I am simply explaining that if the gun goes bang unexpectedly someone.. somewhere... was negligent in some manner. And it isn't always the person holding the gun at the time of the ND.

Click to expand...

Classifying every UD as an ND serves no useful purpose and is insulting to the person to whom the UD happens. I think the definitions above make a distinction that needs to be made. Using those definitions, an ND means the operator needs to change the way he handles his firearm. The danger from an AD should be mitigated by routine safe handling practices.

Click to expand...

I suspect some folks have a problem with the word "negligent" itself because it has the negative connotation of guilt attached.

Insulting to the operator? Changing the name of something to protect the "feelings" of someone doesn't change the truth of it. And changing the name of something doesn't serve any useful purpose because a name change doesn't change the accountability of the one responsible.... although changing the name might make the one responsible "feel" better.

I'll say it again.... if the gun goes bang unexpectedly someone.. somewhere... was negligent in some manner. And it isn't always the person holding the gun at the time of the ND.

I did not say anything about changing any name to protect the "feelings" of someone. That is a strawman, and I expect better from you.

The term AD already exists and is the proper term for a discharge not caused by the negligence of the operator. ND implies negligence by the operator whether that's what you mean or not. For some on here that is precisely what they mean.

I will continue to contend that ND is the proper term only if there is negligence on the part of the operator and that to use it in any other circumstance is despicably judgmental.

Moving on.

eye95 · Jun 7, 2010

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Doug Huffman wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Judge away folks. You are not being helpful.

Click to expand...

"Helpful" is a sloppy euphemism for advancing an agenda (yours). Your agenda is not mine and I have no intention of being helpful to you but of trying to put a sharp point on some of the dullards around OCDO. It is my intention to be correct, conservative and right and not nice and helpful.

You do not need to respond or retort.

I find your posts generally unworthy of on-topic reply. They are, for the most part, intended to belittle others--not to add to the discussion. Have a nice day.

noname762 · Jun 7, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

Judge away folks. You are not being helpful.

Oh how it must be nice to be perfect in a NON perfect world.

Bikenut · Jun 7, 2010

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eye95 wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Classifying every UD as an ND serves no useful purpose and is insulting to the person to whom the UD happens. I think the definitions above make a distinction that needs to be made. Using those definitions, an ND means the operator needs to change the way he handles his firearm. The danger from an AD should be mitigated by routine safe handling practices.

Click to expand...

I suspect some folks have a problem with the word "negligent" itself because it has the negative connotation of guilt attached.

Insulting to the operator? Changing the name of something to protect the "feelings" of someone doesn't change the truth of it. And changing the name of something doesn't serve any useful purpose because a name change doesn't change the accountability of the one responsible.... although changing the name might make the one responsible "feel" better.

I'll say it again.... if the gun goes bang unexpectedly someone.. somewhere... was negligent in some manner. And it isn't always the person holding the gun at the time of the ND.

Click to expand...

I did not say anything about changing any name to protect the "feelings" of someone. That is a strawman, and I expect better from you.

The term AD already exists and is the proper term for a discharge not caused by the negligence of the operator. ND implies negligence by the operator whether that's what you mean or not. For some on here that is precisely what they mean.

I will continue to contend that ND is the proper term only if there is negligence on the part of the operator and that to use it in any other circumstance is despicably judgmental.

Moving on.

Actually I expect better from you than to contradict yourself. Please note the portions of your post I highlighted in blue italics.

My point is changing the name of an ND to an AD or UD... or even a FU... is still changing the name of a discharge that is the result of negligence. Doesn't matter if the name change has already happened ... it is still a name change to protect the feelings of the person it happens to.. or the feelings of the person(s) responsible.

And to call an ND by any other name, currently used or not, is still a name change.

None of that changes the fact that if a gun fires when it is not intended to fire then it is an ........ ND. "Feelings" be damned... it is what it is... and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

I also expect much better from you, an intelligent poster, than to dismiss discourse with "Moving on."

TechnoWeenie · Jun 7, 2010

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cscitney87 wrote:

I know there are many fans of carrying with a loaded chamber..

but for this very reason- accidental discharge- I literally never chamber a round unless I'm pulling the trigger.

Am I wrong or isn't that the simplest way to avoid an accidental discharge?

Good way to get killed.

Doug Huffman · Jun 7, 2010

imported post

TechnoWeenie wrote:

cscitney87 wrote:

I know there are many fans of carrying with a loaded chamber..but for this very reason- accidental discharge- I literally never chamber a round unless I'm pulling the trigger. Am I wrong or isn't that the simplest way to avoid an accidental discharge?

Click to expand...

Good way to get killed.

An unloaded gun is a worse boat anchor than a computer.

Alexcabbie · Jun 7, 2010

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There are accidental discharges, such as alerted Walther America to recall a bunch of PPK and PPK/s pistols.

Personally, I have had one accidental, at the range when I was clearing my PPK/s of a double-feedand forgot to put the safety on (I say accidental instead of negligent because I had the muzzle pointed downrange at all times.) The slide tore my thumb open and I bled like a stuck pig all over the weapon, and of course the blood instantly fried on the hot metal. Of course I had to clean the piece thoroughly ASAP; and believe me, Hoppe's #9 in a cut is extremely unpleasant.....

MarlboroLts5150 · Jun 7, 2010

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Alexcabbie wrote:

There are accidental discharges, such as alerted Walther America to recall a bunch of PPK and PPK/s pistols.

Personally, I have had one accidental, at the range when I was clearing my PPK/s of a double-feedand forgot to put the safety on (I say accidental instead of negligent because I had the muzzle pointed downrange at all times.) The slide tore my thumb open and I bled like a stuck pig all over the weapon, and of course the blood instantly fried on the hot metal. Of course I had to clean the piece thoroughly ASAP; and believe me, Hoppe's #9 in a cut is extremely unpleasant.....

Not knockin' on you, so don't get all fired up...

"...and forgot to put the safety on..." ....would you not consider that to be negligent?

Just sayin'....not wanting to start up an arguement.

I've seen a few train-tracked thumb knuckles, as well as a thumbnail ripped off. That has to hurt like he!!. Hope your thumb healed up okay.

Alexcabbie · Jun 7, 2010

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Well, yes I neglected to put the safety on, but I DID keep the muzzle pointed down range. Therefore my negligence in not putting the safety on resulted in an acicidental discharge. I made sure the bullet would go in a safe direction.

When these S&W Walthers double-feed, you cannot yank out the magazine nor rack the slide, and they must be field-stripped to clear the jam. This is a dangerous undertaking, field-striping a PPK with a magazine in the gun and a cartridge halfway up the pipe. I was so focused on keeping the muzzle pointed downrange that I forgot about engaging the decocker. So, with negligence being a 10 and accident beng a zero, I would say that my range incident rates about 3.3.

BTW what do you 1911 aficianados do with a double-feed that locks up the slide and freezes the magazine? With a Beretta or a Wlther P1 or P.38, you can ctually reach into the top if need be, but if this happens with a 1911, what do you do?

1245A Defender · Jun 7, 2010

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lock the slide open,,,
seat the cartridge in the pipe,,,
push the double feed cartridge, down and back, into under the feed lips.

the first step negates the possible AD/UD/ND!!

Bikenut · Jun 7, 2010

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Well, yes I neglected to put the safety on, but I DID keep the muzzle pointed down range. Therefore my negligence in not putting the safety on resulted in an acicidental discharge. I made sure the bullet would go in a safe direction.

Suppose I neglected to set the hand brake on my car and it rolled downhill and hit another car. Would that be an "accident" or would that be the result of me neglecting to set the brake? Would it make any difference if my car rolled downhill in a safe direction and didn't hit anything? It still rolled downhill because I neglected to set the brake. Neglect is "negligence".

Please do not misunderstand... the word "negligence" is not an insult... it is not a terrible thing... it simply means a screw up happened due to cranial flatulence. Would it not be better to simply accept it for what it is and not softening the blow to the old ego by calling it anything but what it is... and learn from it?

When these S&W Walthers double-feed, you cannot yank out the magazine nor rack the slide, and they must be field-stripped to clear the jam. This is a dangerous undertaking, field-striping a PPK with a magazine in the gun and a cartridge halfway up the pipe. I was so focused on keeping the muzzle pointed downrange that I forgot about engaging the decocker. So, with negligence being a 10 and accident beng a zero, I would say that my range incident rates about 3.3.

BTW what do you 1911 aficianados do with a double-feed that locks up the slide and freezes the magazine? With a Beretta or a Wlther P1 or P.38, you can ctually reach into the top if need be, but if this happens with a 1911, what do you do?

Alexcabbie · Jun 7, 2010

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1245A Defender wrote:

lock the slide open,,,
seat the cartridge in the pipe,,,
push the double feed cartridge, down and back, into under the feed lips.

the first step negates the possible AD/UD/ND!!

Yeah, the PPK series don't have slide locks operable from the outside.

And no, Bikenut, I'm not trying to soften the blow to my ego. Just pointing out that there is negligence, and then there is gross negligence. No doubt about it, I f&%ked up; but at least I kept the gun pointed where the round would'nt cause injury, so my negligence resulted in only a gashed thumb. Ever try to clean baked on blood from stainless steel? Boy, it's a megilha.

ecocks · Jun 7, 2010

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Alexcabbie wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

lock the slide open,,,
seat the cartridge in the pipe,,,
push the double feed cartridge, down and back, into under the feed lips.

the first step negates the possible AD/UD/ND!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, the PPK series don't have slide locks operable from the outside.

And no, Bikenut, I'm not trying to soften the blow to my ego. Just pointing out that there is negligence, and then there is gross negligence. No doubt about it, I f&%ked up; but at least I kept the gun pointed where the round would'nt cause injury, so my negligence resulted in only a gashed thumb. Ever try to clean baked on blood from stainless steel? Boy, it's a megilha.

I would have to call that one as an unintentional discharge rather than negligent.

erichonda30 · Jun 7, 2010

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blood stains give character togun

GLOCK21GB · Jun 7, 2010

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erichonda30 wrote:

blood stains give character togun

Who let the Obama loving, Lib, anti gun TROLL into the forum ????:banghead:

Bikenut · Jun 8, 2010

imported post

Alexcabbie wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

lock the slide open,,,
seat the cartridge in the pipe,,,
push the double feed cartridge, down and back, into under the feed lips.

the first step negates the possible AD/UD/ND!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, the PPK series don't have slide locks operable from the outside.

And no, Bikenut, I'm not trying to soften the blow to my ego. Just pointing out that there is negligence, and then there is gross negligence. No doubt about it, I f&%ked up; but at least I kept the gun pointed where the round would'nt cause injury, so my negligence resulted in only a gashed thumb. Ever try to clean baked on blood from stainless steel? Boy, it's a megilha.

Ya know what? I don't like the impersonal communication of typed words very much.... because my reply to you, which I intended to be focused on the "word" only and not your deed, didn't come across that way.

I did not intend to denigrate you personally... only to show that words have meaning and that a rose by any other name is still.. a flower.

My apologies to you personally Sir... no aspersions upon your character were intended.

Slide bite? Yep, like scope eye, ya only do that once.... I know.

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