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Thread: Forgetting your wallet at home.

  1. #1
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    I would like to know if there are any references in the RCW that state that you have to be in possession of your CPL when carrying concealed. And also, where in the RCW it states that you have to be in possession of your drivers license while operating a motor vehicle, and what the penalties are for each of the above.

    Thank you!

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    RCW 46.20.015Driving without a license — Traffic infraction, when.
    (1) Except as expressly exempted by this chapter, it is a traffic infraction and not a misdemeanor under RCW 46.20.005 if a person:

    (a) Drives any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state without a valid driver's license issued to Washington residents under this chapter in his or her possession;

    (b) Provides the citing officer with an expired driver's license or other valid identifying documentation under RCW 46.20.035 at the time of the stop; and

    (c) Is not driving while suspended or revoked in violation of RCW 46.20.342(1) or *46.20.420.

    (2) A person who violates this section is subject to a penalty of two hundred fifty dollars. If the person appears in person before the court or submits by mail written proof that he or she obtained a valid license after being cited, the court shall reduce the penalty to fifty dollars.






    RCW 46.20.005Driving without a license — Misdemeanor, when.
    Except as expressly exempted by this chapter, it is a misdemeanor for a person to drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state without a valid driver's license issued to Washington residents under this chapter. This section does not apply if at the time of the stop the person is not in violation of RCW 46.20.342(1) or *46.20.420 and has in his or her possession an expired driver's license or other valid identifying documentation under RCW 46.20.035. A violation of this section is a lesser included offense within the offenses described in RCW 46.20.342(1) or *46.20.420.








    RCW 9.41.050Carrying firearms.
    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.










    RCW 69.50.425Misdemeanor violations — Minimum penalties.
    A person who is convicted of a misdemeanor violation of any provision of this chapter shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than twenty-four consecutive hours, and by a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars. On a second or subsequent conviction, the fine shall not be less than five hundred dollars. These fines shall be in addition to any other fine or penalty imposed. Unless the court finds that the imposition of the minimum imprisonment will pose a substantial risk to the defendant's physical or mental well-being or that local jail facilities are in an overcrowded condition, the minimum term of imprisonment shall not be suspended or deferred. If the court finds such risk or overcrowding exists, it shall sentence the defendant to a minimum of forty hours of community restitution. If a minimum term of imprisonment is suspended or deferred, the court shall state in writing the reason for granting the suspension or deferral and the facts upon which the suspension or deferral is based. Unless the court finds the person to be indigent, the minimum fine shall not be suspended or deferred.

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    [/b](1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

    It's a "class 1 civil infraction" but every single instance that I've heard of a CPL holder having contact with an LEO where they are not in possession of their actual CPL card, the LEO was able to look it up on their computer or call in the person's WADL and verify the "active" status on the CPL. No infraction issued in any of the three instances I personally know of.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Thank you both for the references!

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    I have a photocopy of both my DL and CPL in my car tucked away for a forgetful trip to the store....
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member MAndrew's Avatar
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    gogodawgs wrote:
    I have a photocopy of both my DL and CPL in my car tucked away for a forgetful trip to the store....
    This piqued my curiosity. Have you ever needed to use either of these photocopies on a LEO? If so, how did it go?

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    MAndrew wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    I have a photocopy of both my DL and CPL in my car tucked away for a forgetful trip to the store....
    This piqued my curiosity. Have you ever needed to use either of these photocopies on a LEO? If so, how did it go?
    No I haven't, but I figure it would show that at least I made the effort to be lawful. Fortunately, I am not a forgetful person.
    Live Free or Die!

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    "...upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. "

    Key words here are (if required by law to do so.) when you are OCing you are not required by law to show your CPL or Drivers License. (unless driving of course, but I leave my wallet in my car...)

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    That isn't exactly true.

    Referencing 9.41.050(b) quoted above:

    If you are open carrying, you are not required to have your CPL in your possession. However, according to the rules of grammar, "upon demand to any police officer" (or) "to any other person when and if required by law to do so" are two separate and distinct requirements.

    In other words, the "when and if required by law to do so" ONLY applies to "any other person" and does NOT apply to "any police officer".

    So, bottom line is - you can't show a cop what you don't have in your possession, and you aren't required to have the CPL in your possession when open carrying. However, IF you do have your CPL in your possession and any police officer demands to see it, you might want to consider showing it to them, because not to do so would put you in violation of 9.41.050.

    The only time we have figured out when "to any other person when and if required by law to do so" would apply would be when you desire exemption from the waiting periord on handgun purchases and you would be required by law to show your CPL to an FFL.

    If they wanted "when and if required by law to do so" to apply both to "any police officer" and "to any other person" they would have to write the statute as "upon demand to any police officer or to any other person, when and if required by law to do so"
    So if you're in a private business... say a department store. You reach up on a top shelf or something and your CC piece pokes out and an employee sees it, can the private business legally ask to see your CPL?
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    brianstone1985 wrote:
    "...upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. "

    Key words here are (if required by law to do so.) when you are OCing you are not required by law to show your CPL or Drivers License. (unless driving of course, but I leave my wallet in my car...)
    that would totally suck if you car gets stolen...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    You can't do your own research? access.wa.gov

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    You can't do your own research? access.wa.gov
    You mean searching first and then asking later? I did that.

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    I am currently working.....and walletless.....doh!

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    killchain wrote:
    So if you're in a private business... say a department store. You reach up on a top shelf or something and your CC piece pokes out and an employee sees it, can the private business legally ask to see your CPL?
    Yes, they can legally ask to see your CPL. You are under no legal obligation to show it to them, however. They are not law enforcement officials.
    Had that happen one time when I was CCing. I wasn't so sure of what to do so I just complied. At least it shut them up and made them leave me alone. Thanks.

    [EDIT: got my stories mixed up. fixed now. stupid all nighters.]
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    brianstone1985 wrote:
    "...upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. "

    Key words here are (if required by law to do so.) when you are OCing you are not required by law to show your CPL or Drivers License. (unless driving of course, but I leave my wallet in my car...)
    That isn't exactly true.

    Referencing 9.41.050(b) quoted above:

    If you are open carrying, you are not required to have your CPL in your possession. However, according to the rules of grammar, "upon demand to any police officer" (or) "to any other person when and if required by law to do so" are two separate and distinct requirements.

    In other words, the "when and if required by law to do so" ONLY applies to "any other person" and does NOT apply to "any police officer".

    So, bottom line is - you can't show a cop what you don't have in your possession, and you aren't required to have the CPL in your possession when open carrying. However, IF you do have your CPL in your possession and any police officer demands to see it, you might want to consider showing it to them, because not to do so would put you in violation of 9.41.050.

    The only time we have figured out when "to any other person when and if required by law to do so" would apply would be when you desire exemption from the waiting periord on handgun purchases and you would be required by law to show your CPL to an FFL.

    If they wanted "when and if required by law to do so" to apply both to "any police officer" and "to any other person" they would have to write the statute as "upon demand to any police officer or to any other person, when and if required by law to do so"
    Wouldn't they be violating your fourth to just walk up and demand your your CPL, if you are not engaged in any illegal activity?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    killchain wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    killchain wrote:
    So if you're in a private business... say a department store. You reach up on a top shelf or something and your CC piece pokes out and an employee sees it, can the private business legally ask to see your CPL?
    Yes, they can legally ask to see your CPL. You are under no legal obligation to show it to them, however. They are not law enforcement officials.
    Had that happen one time when I was CCing. I wasn't so sure of what to do so I just complied. At least it shut them up and made them leave me alone. Thanks.
    "Yeah, I have a CPL, and since I'm only required to show it to fully commissioned law enforcement officials, I'd like to see your commission card before I show it to you."

    Put it right back in their court...

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Wouldn't they be violating your fourth to just walk up and demand your your CPL, if you are not engaged in any illegal activity?
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Wouldn't they be violating your fourth to just walk up and demand your your CPL, if you are not engaged in any illegal activity?
    It might be considered to be. Let's say a cop sees you exit your vehicle open carrying. A CPL is required for the gun to be loaded in the car. He stops you and asks if your gun is loaded. So where does the situation go from here?

    1. Do you have to answer him? No..he has no RAS to demand an answer...

    2. Can he legitimately verify the status of your gun, since he has not seen the status of your gun change since you got out of your car, and he knows the gun was carried the same way as when you were in your vehicle. He has no legitimate authority to
    verify the status of your gun, any more than he has to verify that you have a license
    to drive a car.. unless he is investigating an actual crime, he has NO authority!

    3. If he verifies that the gun is loaded and there is no way you could have loaded it upon exiting your vehicle because he saw you exit the vehicle, can he demand to see a CPL? How can he find out the gun is loaded, unless you give up your 4th A Right
    to be free from unreasonable search and seizure?

    What I do know for 100% certainty, is that if you don't show it to him you have violated 9.41.050. So, I would think if it went to court, you would be rolling dice weighted against the argument that it was a violation of the 4th amendment because of the statute that exists that you have to show the CPL to him if asked. He can
    Ask to see your CPL during a consentual stop, But he must have RAS of an actual
    crime, Before he has the authority to Demand the display of your CPL..

    I don't know how much "right" the court would give to the officer to verify the licensing requirement if he saw you engaged in an activity which required a license. That would be the big question. Any activity that is Legal, must be allowed.
    Any activity that is Legalized by a licensing requirement, the license for that activity
    cannot be Demanded without RAS of a crime leading to an investigation,,
    A drivers license and registration cannot be Demanded absent a driving infraction..
    There is No firearm exception in Terry V Ohio,, Carrying a firearm is a legal activity,
    A firearm in view, whether open or breifly exposed is Not RAS of criminal activity..
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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    1245A Defender wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Wouldn't they be violating your fourth to just walk up and demand your your CPL, if you are not engaged in any illegal activity?
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Wouldn't they be violating your fourth to just walk up and demand your your CPL, if you are not engaged in any illegal activity?
    It might be considered to be. Let's say a cop sees you exit your vehicle open carrying. A CPL is required for the gun to be loaded in the car. He stops you and asks if your gun is loaded. So where does the situation go from here?

    1. Do you have to answer him? No..he has no RAS to demand an answer...

    2. Can he legitimately verify the status of your gun, since he has not seen the status of your gun change since you got out of your car, and he knows the gun was carried the same way as when you were in your vehicle. He has no legitimate authority to
    verify the status of your gun, any more than he has to verify that you have a license
    to drive a car.. unless he is investigating an actual crime, he has NO authority!

    3. If he verifies that the gun is loaded and there is no way you could have loaded it upon exiting your vehicle because he saw you exit the vehicle, can he demand to see a CPL? How can he find out the gun is loaded, unless you give up your 4th A Right
    to be free from unreasonable search and seizure?

    What I do know for 100% certainty, is that if you don't show it to him you have violated 9.41.050. So, I would think if it went to court, you would be rolling dice weighted against the argument that it was a violation of the 4th amendment because of the statute that exists that you have to show the CPL to him if asked. He can
    Ask to see your CPL during a consentual stop, But he must have RAS of an actual
    crime, Before he has the authority to Demand the display of your CPL..

    I don't know how much "right" the court would give to the officer to verify the licensing requirement if he saw you engaged in an activity which required a license. That would be the big question. Any activity that is Legal, must be allowed.
    Any activity that is Legalized by a licensing requirement, the license for that activity
    cannot be Demanded without RAS of a crime leading to an investigation,,
    A drivers license and registration cannot be Demanded absent a driving infraction..
    There is No firearm exception in Terry V Ohio,, Carrying a firearm is a legal activity,
    A firearm in view, whether open or breifly exposed is Not RAS of criminal activity..
    +1
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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