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Thread: Brown City Days OC fiasco

  1. #1
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    Hey all,

    I have a good friend that lives in Brown City, and during their festival his wife was running a trade booth. He told me a story that was cause for a groan and a "facepalm"...

    To preface: My friend is aware that OC is legal and supports it. His father OC's and was even doing so at this event, and nobody raised an eyebrow with him, however...

    There was apparently another contingent of OCer's that rubbed people the wrong way, and got a significant number of the area business owners discussing the need to pressure state reps to make a law eliminating OC as an option.

    I truly hope it was nobody legitimate from here, because my friend's description painted a picture that described a masquerade party with airsoft guns (by an OCer's admission) and attempts to instigate the local police into a confrontation. I was appalled. His story seriously reminded me of the groups promising to infiltrate and disrupt tea parties. The high notes:

    1. As stated, attempting to draw the local LEO's into an argument and complaining while walking away after failing to do so.

    2. Claimed not to live in the area, but perused the calender of events and selected festival to "assert our right and make a point".

    3. With said agenda, they never broke apart as a group and moved up and down the street at a pace and in a manner that drew attention.

    4. Crowded in on booths as people shopped to stand (per my buddy) "with arms crossed at the chest and bodies twisted to maximize view of gun." No attempt to even view the vendor's products much less buy anything. They invaded enough personal space to force some actual potential customers to walk away. As a vendor how would that make you feel?

    They way he described this was not in line with the methods and examples I've seen within this forum. He said their whole intent was to disrupt the event and make a spectacle of themselves. In direct contrast is my friend's dad, who got no negative feedback and even had a "gun guy" talk like you would at the range with the local PD before these other guys showed up.

    If this was a masquerade party to push an opposing agenda it is something we need to be aware of and be ready to discredit. If this was a few people from here... Please Please PLEASE reconsider your approach because everything I'm hearing is that it did more harm than good. Forcing your views on someone will NOT win us any friends.


  2. #2
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    a few things to poke some holes in this. first, to organize something the size of the group you're talking about, you'd almost certainly need an Internet forum. it most definately was not organized here, or any other gun owner group.

    it would have had to have been organized by people who know about the oc movement and are blantantly against it, again, they would have a forum spewing this kind of stuff, and it would have to be a Michigan based forum, I'll get to why in a second.

    let me break this down step by step:

    1. baiting how? by being by them with a holstered firearm? you mentioned airsoft guns, pretty sure walking around with a facsimilie firearm is a crime, but don't quote me. I personally have no problem making my presence known to an LEO wherever I am, two things will come out of it, i will be able to educate the officer if he doesn't already know, or I will be arrested and be able to win the case in court, educating him still. I see nothing wrong with point 1.

    2. good for them, citizens have the right to travel. who cares why they are there. point absolutely invalid.

    3. again, good for them, more people will know oc is legal after this, another invalid point.

    4. the vendor I believe would have every right to ask them to leave, that would be considered their business, and I am sure the area could be cleared by the vendor, if the vendor wants to endure a rude person invading his space, maybe he should not be a vendor. and the part about standing so the pistol is in plain view again, is invalid, I carry a shoulder holster, no matter how I stand it is not sutble, sub point invalid.

    in closing, the reason I strongly doubt this happened is because it would have been organized by people who own firearms, know about the oc cause, and want attention brought to the cause.

    if they wanted attention brought to the cause why would they go to a festival in the middle of no where, to a town with a population of 1,206, is CNN going to cover this? no.

    I might believe this happened had it been in Detroit, or a major area, however it did not.

    my final conclusion here, humbly is that whoever you were talking to knew you were into oc, however much you are, has an opposing viewpoint, and wanted you to think there are some extreme antis out there giving us all a bad name.

    no offense to brown city, but I never even knew it existed, and I live in the area. good luck out there, carry on.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    mitunnelrat wrote:
    Hey all,

    I have a good friend that lives in Brown City, and during their festival his wife was running a trade booth. He told me a story that was cause for a groan and a "facepalm"...

    To preface: My friend is aware that OC is legal and supports it. His father OC's and was even doing so at this event, and nobody raised an eyebrow with him, however...

    There was apparently another contingent of OCer's that rubbed people the wrong way, and got a significant number of the area business owners discussing the need to pressure state reps to make a law eliminating OC as an option.

    I truly hope it was nobody legitimate from here, because my friend's description painted a picture that described a masquerade party with airsoft guns (by an OCer's admission) and attempts to instigate the local police into a confrontation. I was appalled. His story seriously reminded me of the groups promising to infiltrate and disrupt tea parties. The high notes:

    1. As stated, attempting to draw the local LEO's into an argument and complaining while walking away after failing to do so.

    2. Claimed not to live in the area, but perused the calender of events and selected festival to "assert our right and make a point".

    3. With said agenda, they never broke apart as a group and moved up and down the street at a pace and in a manner that drew attention.

    4. Crowded in on booths as people shopped to stand (per my buddy) "with arms crossed at the chest and bodies twisted to maximize view of gun." No attempt to even view the vendor's products much less buy anything. They invaded enough personal space to force some actual potential customers to walk away. As a vendor how would that make you feel?

    They way he described this was not in line with the methods and examples I've seen within this forum. He said their whole intent was to disrupt the event and make a spectacle of themselves. In direct contrast is my friend's dad, who got no negative feedback and even had a "gun guy" talk like you would at the range with the local PD before these other guys showed up.

    If this was a masquerade party to push an opposing agenda it is something we need to be aware of and be ready to discredit. If this was a few people from here... Please Please PLEASE reconsider your approach because everything I'm hearing is that it did more harm than good. Forcing your views on someone will NOT win us any friends.
    OC is a political thing. We need to understand that and understand that it is in the political arena that OC.. and all gun rights... will be fought for.

    It is the leftists (and anti gunners) who engage in dirty tricks. It is the leftists who revel in confrontation (violent protests complete with breaking windows as opposed to Tea Partys who not only don't break anything but clean up all litter before they leave). It is the leftist who would masquerade as the very thing they wish to eliminate (OC'ers) in order to piss people off enough to get them to help eliminate OC.

    It is the leftists who believe in Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals that states "the ends justify the means" and who will do anything, including confrontational intimidation methods and violence, to force their anti freedom agenda onto others.

    Know your enemy to OC and freedom in general... for it is the Saul Alinsky leftist who will use any and all methods to get what he/she wants.

    The leftist playbook can be read here:

    http://www.infed.org/thinkers/alinsky.htm

    Seriously folks.... know your enemy. And please understand that OC to a leftist is an in their face declaration of everything they despise..... freedom. And they will do anything, use every dirty trick they can think of, in order to force their anti gun-anti freedom pro gun control-pro socialist agenda onto everyone.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  4. #4
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    mitunnelrat wrote:
    I have a good friend that lives in Brown City, and during their festival his wife was running a trade booth. He told me a story that was cause for a groan and a "facepalm"...
    Pictures,video,police report or it didn't happen.

    Also,this website and the participants here aren'tabout carrying toys. We carry real guns. Responsibly and politely. You should go to the airsoft toy websites and warn them of the allegedbusiness owners talking about pressing for a ban on carry of airsoft toys.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    DanM wrote:
    mitunnelrat wrote:
    I have a good friend that lives in Brown City, and during their festival his wife was running a trade booth.* He told me a story that was cause for a groan and a "facepalm"...
    Pictures,*video,*police report or it didn't happen.

    Also,*this website and the participants here aren't*about carrying toys.* We carry real guns.* Responsibly and politely.* You should go to the airsoft toy websites and warn them of the alleged*business owners talking about pressing for a ban on carry of airsoft toys.
    I know one person on here who has carried airsoft...

    Something I vehemently disagree with.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    Also,this website and the participants here aren'tabout carrying toys.
    I know one person on here who has carried airsoft...
    I wasn't saying people don't carry airsoft. I'm saying that's not what this website and it's participants are about. This website and it's participants are about open carry of handguns inholsters. The point being, the OP's concerns about an alleged incidentofcarry of airsoft toys are more properly discussed on airsoft websites.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Im thinking this is BS. If not, then as was mensioned, the buisinesses could have had trhem escorted out. The description of them standing in a manner whichexaggerated the "firearms" visibility could be brandishing.

    It wouldnt suprise me however, if the antis tried something like this pretty soon.

  8. #8
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    i would LOVE to run into them somewhere. ann arbor art fair this summer. has it all. never a more liberal town and all kinds of booths devoted to promoting political agendas. good place for an OC showing or even host a booth.

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    DanM, They were posturing as if the airsoft firearms were the real thing, while handing out OC pamphlets (believe I forgot to mention that before) and only mentioned it when asked what they were carrying.

    Stainless, they were outside at a festival, not inside the businesses from what I gathered. When t hey engaged the cop in conversation he told them to enjoy Brown City Days since he was aware OC is legal and had no problem with their presence.

    Make of it what you will folks, I was attempting to pass along news of an OC gathering that I didn't see organized or mentioned here on the forum, that used tactics and techniques I've never seen mentioned here on the forum. Tactics and techniques that did more harm than good for the OC movement. It stank of something other than an attempt to improve relations with and desensitize the public.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    Also,this website and the participants here aren'tabout carrying toys.
    I know one person on here who has carried airsoft...
    I wasn't saying people don't carry airsoft. I'm saying that's not what this website and it's participants are about. This website and it's participants are about open carry of handguns inholsters. The point being, the OP's concerns about an alleged incidentofcarry of airsoft toys are more properly discussed on airsoft websites.
    The point of a 'masquerade' is to make something appear to be something it is not. In this case, people who are anti-gun would not own guns, so they would use airsoft and attempt to make them look like real guns.

    If this happened, this is the way it would have happened, and this is the point being made.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    mitunnelrat wrote:
    DanM, They were posturing as if the airsoft firearms were the real thing, while handing out OC pamphlets (believe I forgot to mention that before) and only mentioned it when asked what they were carrying.

    Stainless, they were outside at a festival, not inside the businesses from what I gathered. When t hey engaged the cop in conversation he told them to enjoy Brown City Days since he was aware OC is legal and had no problem with their presence.

    Make of it what you will folks, I was attempting to pass along news of an OC gathering that I didn't see organized or mentioned here on the forum, that used tactics and techniques I've never seen mentioned here on the forum. Tactics and techniques that did more harm than good for the OC movement. It stank of something other than an attempt to improve relations with and desensitize the public.
    I would be interested in what material those pamphlets contained.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    NO disrespect to the OP but this smells funny...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    NO disrespect to the OP but he smells funny...
    That's preposterous! And rude.

  14. #14
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    NO disrespect to the OP but he smells funny...
    That's preposterous! And rude.
    Nice job editing what I said

    Like I said no disrespect to the OP... I suspect this is second or third hand so it is not his responsibility if it is not true.

    However the story does not pass the smell test there are many inconsistencies in the story and it is too smoothly scripted.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Apparently, according to google, this thread is the only one on the internet that has "Brown City Days" and "Open carry" in it... Just something to think about.
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  16. #16
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    MarineSgt wrote:
    Apparently, according to google, this thread is the only one on the internet that has "Brown City Days" and "Open carry" in it... Just something to think about.
    I know... I did the google check as well...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    mitunnelrat wrote:
    DanM, They were posturing as if the airsoft firearms were the real thing, while handing out OC pamphlets (believe I forgot to mention that before) and only mentioned it when asked what they were carrying.

    Stainless, they were outside at a festival, not inside the businesses from what I gathered.* When t hey engaged the cop in conversation he told them to enjoy Brown City Days since he was aware OC is legal and had no problem with their presence.

    Make of it what you will folks, I was attempting to pass along news of an OC gathering that I didn't see organized or mentioned here on the forum, that used tactics and techniques I've never seen mentioned here on the forum.* Tactics and techniques that did more harm than good for the OC movement.* It stank of something other than an attempt to improve relations with and desensitize the public.
    If it did "more harm than good" someone, somewhere, besides out little tiny corner of the internet would have said something about it, somewhere.

  18. #18
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    also, I could not even find a mention of brown city festival, fair, "brown city days," brown city (other than the offical website, or any variation of anything with brown city on the internet, how would a group of OCers from out of town ever even know when brown city days is?

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    OP thanks for posting, if its a hoax, then its a hoax, but if not, its certainly worth discussion.

    BTW, although I lack a cite, I understand that making a toy gun look like a real one is a crime. Something to think about in the future if some antis or cops try to pull something like this.

    Yes I said cops, I wouldnt put it past some of them based on comments Ive read on other sites. They also could mask their plans through private forums.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    OP thanks for posting, if its a hoax, then its a hoax, but if not, its certainly worth discussion.

    BTW, although I lack a cite, I understand that making a toy gun look like a real one is a crime. Something to think about in the future if some antis or cops try to pull something like this.

    Yes I said cops, I wouldnt put it past some of them based on comments Ive read on other sites. They also could mask their plans through private forums.
    don't worry, he's just relaying what he "heard". he's not stating it as a fact. he's not a troll, he's been on here a while and i've talked to him. he's going to help out at the marysville picnic. he just doesn't post on here a lot. it is absolutely not a crime to make a toy gun look like a real one. it may however be a crime to brandish it or use it in the commission of a crime. but that is regulated city to city and state to state. my town, for example has an ordinance regarding toy guns. they are allowed to because fake guns are not preempted.
    THIS REFERS TO ST CLAIR ONLY:
    Sec. 38-231. Display of replica, toy or imitation gun.
    It shall be unlawful for any person to brandish, aim, point, or exhibit to any other person a replica or facsimile of a firearm in such manner as to frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy any other person. A "replica or facsimile of a firearm" shall mean any device or object which is a replica, facsimile, imitation or toy version of any firearm, including but not limited to toy guns, movie or stage props, air guns, starter pistols, inoperative firearms, models, replicas or any other device designed or used to imitate a firearm.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  21. #21
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    OP thanks for posting, if its a hoax, then its a hoax, but if not, its certainly worth discussion.

    BTW, although I lack a cite, I understand that making a toy gun look like a real one is a crime. Something to think about in the future if some antis or cops try to pull something like this.

    Yes I said cops, I wouldnt put it past some of them based on comments Ive read on other sites. They also could mask their plans through private forums.
    don't worry, he's just relaying what he "heard". he's not stating it as a fact. he's not a troll, he's been on here a while and i've talked to him. he's going to help out at the marysville picnic. he just doesn't post on here a lot. it is absolutely not a crime to make a toy gun look like a real one. it may however be a crime to brandish it or use it in the commission of a crime. but that is regulated city to city and state to state. my town, for example has an ordinance regarding toy guns. they are allowed to because fake guns are not preempted.
    THIS REFERS TO ST CLAIR ONLY:
    Sec. 38-231. Display of replica, toy or imitation gun.
    It shall be unlawful for any person to brandish, aim, point, or exhibit to any other person a replica or facsimile of a firearm in such manner as to frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy any other person. A "replica or facsimile of a firearm" shall mean any device or object which is a replica, facsimile, imitation or toy version of any firearm, including but not limited to toy guns, movie or stage props, air guns, starter pistols, inoperative firearms, models, replicas or any other device designed or used to imitate a firearm.
    it looks like according to that law, a holstered airsoft gun is not a crime

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    OP thanks for posting, if its a hoax, then its a hoax, but if not, its certainly worth discussion.

    BTW, although I lack a cite, I understand that making a toy gun look like a real one is a crime. Something to think about in the future if some antis or cops try to pull something like this.

    Yes I said cops, I wouldnt put it past some of them based on comments Ive read on other sites. They also could mask their plans through private forums.
    don't worry, he's just relaying what he "heard". he's not stating it as a fact. he's not a troll, he's been on here a while and i've talked to him. he's going to help out at the marysville picnic. he just doesn't post on here a lot. it is absolutely not a crime to make a toy gun look like a real one. it may however be a crime to brandish it or use it in the commission of a crime. but that is regulated city to city and state to state. my town, for example has an ordinance regarding toy guns. they are allowed to because fake guns are not preempted.
    THIS REFERS TO ST CLAIR ONLY:
    Sec. 38-231. Display of replica, toy or imitation gun.
    It shall be unlawful for any person to brandish, aim, point, or exhibit to any other person a replica or facsimile of a firearm in such manner as to frighten, threaten, harass, panic or annoy any other person. A "replica or facsimile of a firearm" shall mean any device or object which is a replica, facsimile, imitation or toy version of any firearm, including but not limited to toy guns, movie or stage props, air guns, starter pistols, inoperative firearms, models, replicas or any other device designed or used to imitate a firearm.
    it looks like according to that law, a holstered airsoft gun is not a crime
    THE LAW IN ST CLAIR ONLY!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Oh, Im not calling him out as a troll. But Im pretty sure its illegal to make a toy gun look like a real one. ie. painting the orange tip black, or removing it altogether.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Oh, Im not calling him out as a troll. But Im pretty sure its illegal to make a toy gun look like a real one. ie. painting the orange tip black, or removing it altogether.
    cite. this has been discussed at length on the forum and no one can find a law to the contrary. once you buy a toy, it is yours to do with as you wish. like i said, you may run into local ordinances regulating what you can do with toy guns, but for the most part they only apply to brandishing a toy gun or using it to commit a crime.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Oh, Im not calling him out as a troll. But Im pretty sure its illegal to make a toy gun look like a real one. ie. painting the orange tip black, or removing it altogether.
    im pretty sure the law only states that airsoft guns must be sold with an orange tip,nothing about the consumer removing it imo.

    kwirknu,before he just painted the entire thing orange,had his AK pistol muzzle break painted orange.

    i think there should be laws about requiring there to be an orange or red tip left on at all times,and to make it a crime to do that to real firearms though.

    i can see somebody doing that with a real firearm,and then somebody else getting ahold of it and shooting somebody in the back because they thought it wasnt real.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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