BATFE

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eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

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ah, the keeper of the rules. was waiting for you to chime in......

I wasn't bashing anyone based on OCCUPATION ,

i was bashing them based on the fact that they so gleefully & willingly enforce draconian / Totalitarian Laws that are in my opinion Unconstitutional. Anyone who is a PUBLIC SERVANT paid with tax payers dollars needs to abide by the Declaration of independence, constitution ( the original spirit & intent of the 2nd amendment ) & the Bill of rights.

BUT THEY TREAT THESE DOCUMENTS WITH CONTEMPT

It's too bad, now ATF agents are now taught that the founding fathers were TERRORIST'S ??!!!!!!:X WTF :exclaim::exclaim::exclaim::exclaim::exclaim::exclaim::exclaim:

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I would consider the ATF as part of the government Gestapo. I don't think their agents think of themselves that way. I'm sure most of them are honorable but they've drank the Federal propaganda kool-aid. The same with the DEA. They've been sold a lie.

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rodbender wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

Glock34 wrote:

Aaron1124 wrote:

You've probably seen my posts, but I'll say it again. I have relatives who are both active and retired Law Enforcement, ranging from local PD's, ATF, and DEA. They are also all former military as well as very patriotic men who fully support the United States Constitution.

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go figure

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Not really sure what you mean by that, but my point is, you can't put a blanket over each and every officer or agent of the law, and assume that they're "against us" and against the constitution.

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True, but the majority are...by a wide margin.

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Majority of cops? Or majority of big shot politicians and directors? Most of the local police that I know (and I know quite a few - considering I have many relatives and friends currently serving on the department, and many who are retired) completely support the 2nd amendment.

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The majority of federal cops. Local cops are a bit more....TOLERANT.

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no one was talking about local cops.

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Excuse me?!?! No one???

Glock34 wrote:

no one was talking about local cops.

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Aaron1124wrote:
Majority of cops? Or majority of big shot politicians and directors? Most of the local police that I know (and I know quite a few - considering I have many relatives and friends currently serving on the department, and many who are retired) completely support the 2nd amendment.

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eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

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I didn't see any LEO bashing.  What I saw was a thread that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement. 

We have a RKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federal leviathan when he becomes tyranical. The 2A isn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection.  It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

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Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

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I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

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most sheeple can't see the distinction.:?

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Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

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[/font]

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I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

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eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/font]

Click to expand...

I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

Click to expand...

Why don't we allow the owners of the board tell us when it is LEO bashing. We don't need you or anyone standing in their place.

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rodbender wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]
[/font]

Click to expand...

I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

Click to expand...

Why don't we allow the owners of the board tell us when it is LEO bashing. We don't need you or anyone standing in their place.

Click to expand...

I am expressing my opinion. I hope that it helps the owners notice and do something about it. I will continue to point it out when I see it.

Feel free to continue to gripe about it when I do.

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Bashing is harsh criticism. I see criticism but not so nearly harsh as if I expressed my opinion.

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eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/font]

Click to expand...

I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

Click to expand...

The title of this thread is BATFE. There may be some tangential discussion of other agencies, but the core of this discussion is BATFE. BATFE IS an outlaw organization. They have a demonstrated penchant for using JBT tactics, lieing in court and shooting dogs.

If you really don't believe us, then please start a new thread entitled "The BATFE is Your Friend". You will break an OCDO record for how quick the thread is closed for profane language.

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Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]
[/font]

Click to expand...

I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

Click to expand...

The title of this thread is BATFE. There may be some tangential discussion of other agencies, but the core of this discussion is BATFE. BATFE IS an outlaw organization. They have a demonstrated penchant for using JBT tactics, lieing in court and shooting dogs.

If you really don't believe us, then please start a new thread entitled "The BATFE is Your Friend". You will break an OCDO record for how quick the thread is closed for profane language.

Click to expand...

Your post presents the logic error known as "false choice." It makes it appear that the options are to accept the bashing that is going on here or proclaim my friendship with BATFE as an agency.

There is a third alternative, and the one I will take. Where I see general LEO bashing (see my post above if you don't understand what I mean by this), I will criticize it. Where I see facts about specific instances or statistics to support broader statements, I will remain silent or comment on-topic.

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Aaron1124 wrote:

You've probably seen my posts, but I'll say it again. I have relatives who are both active and retired Law Enforcement, ranging from local PD's, ATF, and DEA. They are also all former military as well as very patriotic men who fully support the United States Constitution.

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Sorry to tell you this, but your relatives were ignorant of the Constitution and lied to by their superiors. The ATF is a tax enforcement agency and enforces illegal taxes on Constitutional rights.... it is unconstitutional to tax gun ownership. The AFT are the hired thugs of one corrupt administration after another. They were not patriots, they were traitors who deserve to be tried for murder (if they killed any Americans) or as co-conspirators to murder American citizens. How many American citizens have been killed in unconstitutional actions against them because they make moonshine, or because they grow and sell their own tobacco, or because they do not recognize the government's authority to restrict firearms? How many? It isn't justifiable and anyone partaking in these organizations that murder Americans are equally guilty of their deaths.

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gsx1138 wrote:

I would consider the ATF as part of the government Gestapo. I don't think their agents think of themselves that way. I'm sure most of them are honorable but they've drank the Federal propaganda kool-aid. The same with the DEA. They've been sold a lie.

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Remember, just saying "I was following orders" does not fly... you WILL BE TRIED for war crimes and sentenced along side the people giving those orders! This is why all ATF agents who don't learn the truth...when the truth is readily available, should be tried for the murders the agency has committed enforcing unconstitutional laws.

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eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

eye95 wrote:

[W]e will NOT tolerate ... general bashing of groups of people based upon ... choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

Click to expand...

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/font]

Click to expand...

I didn't see any LEO bashing. What I saw was a threat that discussed the nature of this abomination called federal law enforcement.

We have aRKBA specifically to enable us to stand up to this federalleviathan when he becomes tyranical.The 2Aisn't for hunting and it isn't for personal protection. It is for defeating a federal government that does not follow the constitution.

Discussion of whether the federal servants have tried to usurp power and become the federal masters is therefore very, very relvant to any 2A discussion.

Do you see the difference?

Click to expand...

That would be true IF:

Only specific instances of LEOs stepping on rights was being discussed

OR

If statistics were being produced that proved generalizations about the "majority" of LEOs.


Insulting and unsupported generalizations about the majority of LEOs IS LEO-bashing. It happens on this board all the time, despite a clear rule against it.

Click to expand...

The title of this thread is BATFE. There may be some tangential discussion of other agencies, but the core of this discussion is BATFE. BATFE IS an outlaw organization. They have a demonstrated penchant for using JBT tactics, lieing in court and shooting dogs.

If you really don't believe us, then please start a new thread entitled "The BATFE is Your Friend". You will break an OCDO record for how quick the thread is closed for profane language.

Click to expand...

Your post presents the logic error known as "false choice." It makes it appear that the options are to accept the bashing that is going on here or proclaim my friendship with BATFE as an agency.

There is a third alternative, and the one I will take. Where I see general LEO bashing (see my post above if you don't understand what I mean by this), I will criticize it. Where I see facts about specific instances or statistics to support broader statements, I will remain silent or comment on-topic.

Click to expand...

Glock 34 said "I wasn't bashing anyone based on OCCUPATION ,

i was bashing them based on the fact that they so gleefully & willingly enforce draconian / Totalitarian Laws that are in my opinion Unconstitutional. Anyone who is a PUBLIC SERVANT paid with tax payers dollars needs to abide by the Declaration of independence, constitution ( the original spirit & intent of the 2nd amendment ) & the Bill of rights.

BUT THEY TREAT THESE DOCUMENTS WITH CONTEMPT

It's too bad, now ATF agents are now taught that the founding fathers were TERRORIST'S ??!!!!!!"



So if calling a JBT a JBT is bashing, then please be my guest and kiss the feet of the all mighty BATFE, who urinate on our Constitution with immunity gained by their intimidation and war crimes.

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http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-25.html

There's a story about the BATF I remember.

Look, I wish there was no BATF. But as long as there is, I would like to have reasonable men in it.

I would say the same thing about police in general. There are a lot bad ones. More than just a few. And there are good ones, who really do risk their lives to stand between the scumbags and the rest of us.

Police are a complicated matter. I am chastened whenever I encounter some case of police abuse, which happens daily, and I get all wound up about the cops until I uncover a story of real heroism - which also happens daily.

Or have an encounter with a police officer who is reasonable and professional, which thankfully in Arizona is the norm.

I agree the BATF should not exist. But I am sure there are some decent people in there dealing with some really horrible people, at great personal risk, out of a sense of duty.

I have had an incredible mix of experiences with law enforcement over my lifetime. I've never been arrested.

Law enforcement are not all one thing.

And there are some genuine heroes among them. I guess I wish there were more heroes and less goons. But it doesn't seem fair to let the goons define the lot.

In the BATF or otherwise. I refuse to blanket praise or condemn law enforcement.

Because in the end, there are some real dirtbags out there. And someone's gotta confront them. And the guys in uniform who have the guts to do so have my respect.

The best thing any of us can do is change the laws and government, by which I mean repeal and abolish as much as we can, thereby better defining what is wrong and what is right, and thereby constrain the realm police operate in.

I can only judge each officer as an individual. And I would point out that many cops support civilian gun rights, which says a lot.

To me, anyway.

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crisisweasel wrote:

http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-25.html

There's a story about the BATF I remember.

Look, I wish there was no BATF. But as long as there is, I would like to have reasonable men in it.

I would say the same thing about police in general. There are a lot bad ones. More than just a few. And there are good ones, who really do risk their lives to stand between the scumbags and the rest of us.

Police are a complicated matter. I am chastened whenever I encounter some case of police abuse, which happens daily, and I get all wound up about the cops until I uncover a story of real heroism - which also happens daily.

Or have an encounter with a police officer who is reasonable and professional, which thankfully in Arizona is the norm.

I agree the BATF should not exist. But I am sure there are some decent people in there dealing with some really horrible people, at great personal risk, out of a sense of duty.

I have had an incredible mix of experiences with law enforcement over my lifetime. I've never been arrested.

Law enforcement are not all one thing.

And there are some genuine heroes among them. I guess I wish there were more heroes and less goons. But it doesn't seem fair to let the goons define the lot.

In the BATF or otherwise. I refuse to blanket praise or condemn law enforcement.

Because in the end, there are some real dirtbags out there. And someone's gotta confront them. And the guys in uniform who have the guts to do so have my respect.

The best thing any of us can do is change the laws and government, by which I mean repeal and abolish as much as we can, thereby better defining what is wrong and what is right, and thereby constrain the realm police operate in.

I can only judge each officer as an individual. And I would point out that many cops support civilian gun rights, which says a lot.

To me, anyway.

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The problem is that the BATFE is not a Law Enforcement Agency...it is a Tax Enforcement Agency... there is a BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

I don't respect Federal Law Enforcement... like the FBI (criminals and thugs) and the DEA (more criminals and thugs)... but I have the utmost respect for local LEOs who are a part of their communities. When a member of the local community stands up and acts as a bulwark against the evil SOBs of the world... I have nothing but respect for those guys and gals.

But Federal Law Enforcement is an Oxymoron as there should be only Constitutional Law which is Federal that is enumerated in the Constitution... and the rest should only reside with the States. The fact that we now have 68,000 some odd Federal statutes just goes to show the length the usurpers will go to steal our country from us.... to unlawfully take what does not belong to them... and argue that it does until they're blue in the face... justifying their usurpations with vague clauses from whole sentences... rather than taking whole sentences at complete face value.... they could not rule us if they followed the Constitution... and they desire nothing more than to dominate and rule over us... for this... I hate them and hold them ALL in contempt. As far as I am concerned... all Federal Tax and Law enforcement agencies are full of traitors and murderers.

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Not really sure what you mean by that, but my point is, you can't put a blanket over each and every officer or agent of the law, and assume that they're "against us" and against the constitution.

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The blanket isn't on the agents but the agencies. I said it before and I will say it again, we have all the police we need in state being supported by local tax dollars who know the terrain and the people they are dealing with. We do NOT need to send tax dollars to Washington DC to fund a myriad number of agencies to come and show us local yokels how to do our job. They want to be tax men, fine, give them a desk and a pad of paper and a pencil, no gun needed. They want to be a policeman fine, go home to your home state and join the local force. With the money saved by not funding all the useless armed and dangerous federal agencies they can afford more police at home. It would be nice to have a few beat cops walking the streets again.