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Thread: CCW question

  1. #1
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    can i get my CCW permit in VA if i had a misdemenor DUI like 2 years ago. just wondering if its a waste to take a ccw class if i cant get one :celebrate

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    In reviewing the VA Sate Police website I found this. This might be what you are looking for.

    Per http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...oObtainaPermit

    "9. An individual who has been convicted of a violation of § 18.2-266 or a substantially similar local ordinance or of public drunkenness within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, or who is a habitual drunkard as determined pursuant to § 4.1-333."

    18.2-266 deals with driving under the influence.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    The state police web site is correct, but sources like that tend to be updated with changes much later. It's better to get as close to the source as possible. The actual source of that information is in the Code of Virginia. The question you're asking is discussed in § 18.2-308(E)(9)

    § 18.2-308
    <snip>
    E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

    1. An individual who is ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to § 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.1:2 or 18.2-308.1:3 or the substantially similar law of any other state or of the United States.
    2. An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to § 18.2-308.1:1 and who was discharged from the custody of the Commissioner pursuant to § 19.2-182.7 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    3. An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to § 18.2-308.1:2 and whose competency or capacity was restored pursuant to § 37.2-1012 less than five years before the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    4. An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm under § 18.2-308.1:3 and who was released from commitment less than five years before the date of this application for a concealed handgun permit.
    5. An individual who is subject to a restraining order, or to a protective order and prohibited by § 18.2-308.1:4 from purchasing or transporting a firearm.
    6. An individual who is prohibited by § 18.2-308.2 from possessing or transporting a firearm, except that a permit may be obtained in accordance with subsection C of that section.
    7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.
    8. An individual who is addicted to, or is an unlawful user or distributor of, marijuana or any controlled substance.
    9. An individual who has been convicted of a violation of § 18.2-266 or a substantially similar local ordinance or of public drunkenness within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, or who is a habitual drunkard as determined pursuant to § 4.1-333.
    10. An alien other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States.
    11. An individual who has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
    12. An individual who is a fugitive from justice.
    13. An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
    14. An individual who has been convicted of any assault, assault and battery, sexual battery, discharging of a firearm in violation of § 18.2-280 or 18.2-286.1 or brandishing of a firearm in violation of § 18.2-282 within the three-year period immediately preceding the application.
    15. An individual who has been convicted of stalking.
    16. An individual whose previous convictions or adjudications of delinquency were based on an offense which would have been at the time of conviction a felony if committed by an adult under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, the United States or its territories. For purposes of this disqualifier, only convictions occurring within 16 years following the later of the date of (i) the conviction or adjudication or (ii) release from any incarceration imposed upon such conviction or adjudication shall be deemed to be "previous convictions."
    17. An individual who has a felony charge pending or a charge pending for an offense listed in subdivision 14 or 15.
    18. An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
    19. An individual not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, who, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application for the permit, was found guilty of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or of a criminal offense of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance, under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.
    20. An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to § 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

    <snip>


  4. #4
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, its never a waste to take the class since your training never expires. You can get the class done and then in 3 years, 1 day, apply for your permit.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    Just to be clear, its never a waste to take the class since your training never expires. You can get the class done and then in 3 years, 1 day, apply for your permit.
    Yeah, certainly.

    The OP, provided he is not prohibited from possession of a firearm, can still OC without a permit. I'm sure that most, if not all of that training applies to carrying a firearm openly just as well as concealed.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Evilbutters wrote:
    can i get my CCW permitin VA?
    No, because Virginia issues CHP's, NOT CCWs.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  7. #7
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    virginiatuck wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Just to be clear, its never a waste to take the class since your training never expires. You can get the class done and then in 3 years, 1 day, apply for your permit.
    Yeah, certainly.

    The OP, provided he is not prohibited from possession of a firearm, can still OC without a permit. I'm sure that most, if not all of that training applies to carrying a firearm openly just as well as concealed.
    Absolutely. Gun safety can be applied to OC and CC.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    ProShooter wrote:
    virginiatuck wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Just to be clear, its never a waste to take the class since your training never expires. You can get the class done and then in 3 years, 1 day, apply for your permit.
    Yeah, certainly.

    The OP, provided he is not prohibited from possession of a firearm, can still OC without a permit. I'm sure that most, if not all of that training applies to carrying a firearm openly just as well as concealed.
    Absolutely. Gun safety can be applied to OC and CC.
    Actually, there was very little CC only talk except for the minimum needed in the class I took.

    Most of it was on safe handling and carry, proper cleaning, a little on break in and the rules we all live by for safe storage.

    None of the BS tough guy stories I hear about other classes.

    Then the class went over proper shooting techniques as thoroughly as could be done without being on the range.

    It was as well suited to the OC'er as the CC'er.

    I took Proshooters class BTW, with my wife, and I have no intention of getting a CHP.

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    thanks guys you answered my questions. and your right i should take the classes

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Reading this thread, and after having recently attended a Utah CC class, I now realise just how different the classes for getting a permit are from state to state...

    Here in NC, the VAST majority of the class is about the LAW. Instructors in NC all tell you up front that their class for CHP is NOT a basic firearms safety class. They assume that you already know how to clean, handle, store and shoot a firearm before you take the class, and as we have a shooting qualification in NC, you'd BETTER know how to shoot safely and accurately before you come to a class...

    It's an 8-hour class (PLUS range qualification) in NC. Most of the time is spent on the legal implications of use of lethal force. They cover what is justified, what is not. They cover all sorts of scenarios and refer to the applicable statutes and case law. There is a fair amount of discussion on home defense, carrying and defense in public, and what does and does not qualify as a "righteous shoot".

    It sounds like there's not a lot of that in the VA training, and there was precious little of that in the Utah course.

    I've been shooting for 20+ years. I was glad our NC training was mostly about the law, because THAT is where most self-defense shootings become problematic. I am a little surprised that some states dont spend more time focusing on the law in their required training.

    It's no wonder there is so much discussion on this sort of thing on forums like this if VA and UT are in any way indicative of how other states do their training. And it's no wonder the "universal reciprocity" bill got shut down in Congress last year. It looks like a LOT of state's training for CC leaves a LOT to be desired when it comes to training in the LEGAL implications of defensive carry.

    If someone wants to carry, I think they need to be proficient in the safe use of their firearm first. If you want to CC, then the training for that permit SHOULD be focused on the legal ramifications of doing so, NOT some sort of basic firearms safety course...

    Wow... I'm still trying to understand why some states don't focus their CC training on the LAW, rather than piddling around for 6 hours on safety and functional fundamentals...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
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  11. #11
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Dreamer,

    You have to remember that this topic will vary from state to state. Each state has different laws, views, etc.

    For example - Virginia's Code uses the words "firearms training or safety course or class". That is a pretty wide open description. We could discuss handgun nomenclature, or laws, or shooting stances, or gun safety, or how to clean an AR-15. Its really left up to the individual instructor. Most instructors focus on safety since that is always first and foremost.

    Now, I do a separate course on the Virginia laws, dealing with the police, reciprocity, etc. but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving someone a certificate based on those topics because in my mind, they don't meet the intent of the statute. That's my call as the instructor....everyone (and every instructor)is different though. There is no statutory requirement as to content, length of class, etc. Some states have very structured outlines on course content. Some states require no training at all. Concealed carry in Virginia requires training, open carry requires nothing.

    The Utah non-resident course provides you with good gun safety information that everyone can benefit from. It also provides you withUtah law, not Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, orany other state, and most people will have zero use for Utah law during the course of their lives.

    Most people who obtain the Utah permit will probably never set foot inside Utah but they'll use that permit to carry many other places. Each of those places has various laws, views on the use of deadly force, the Castle Doctrine, etc. No one class can cover those topics for every state. Utah's view on deadly force means nothing in Georgia, Virginia, or anywhere besides Utah.

    In my opinion, courses are written to appeal to the masses; to give the greatest benefit to the largest amount of people. I think that the topics that you seek instructionon cannot possibly come from a generalized program, no matter what the state.


    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Dreamer wrote:
    Reading this thread, and after having recently attended a Utah CC class, I now realise just how different the classes for getting a permit are from state to state...

    Here in NC, the VAST majority of the class is about the LAW. Instructors in NC all tell you up front that their class for CHP is NOT a basic firearms safety class. They assume that you already know how to clean, handle, store and shoot a firearm before you take the class, and as we have a shooting qualification in NC, you'd BETTER know how to shoot safely and accurately before you come to a class...

    It's an 8-hour class (PLUS range qualification) in NC. Most of the time is spent on the legal implications of use of lethal force. They cover what is justified, what is not. They cover all sorts of scenarios and refer to the applicable statutes and case law. There is a fair amount of discussion on home defense, carrying and defense in public, and what does and does not qualify as a "righteous shoot".

    It sounds like there's not a lot of that in the VA training, and there was precious little of that in the Utah course.

    I've been shooting for 20+ years. I was glad our NC training was mostly about the law, because THAT is where most self-defense shootings become problematic. I am a little surprised that some states dont spend more time focusing on the law in their required training.

    It's no wonder there is so much discussion on this sort of thing on forums like this if VA and UT are in any way indicative of how other states do their training. And it's no wonder the "universal reciprocity" bill got shut down in Congress last year. It looks like a LOT of state's training for CC leaves a LOT to be desired when it comes to training in the LEGAL implications of defensive carry.

    If someone wants to carry, I think they need to be proficient in the safe use of their firearm first. If you want to CC, then the training for that permit SHOULD be focused on the legal ramifications of doing so, NOT some sort of basic firearms safety course...

    Wow... I'm still trying to understand why some states don't focus their CC training on the LAW, rather than piddling around for 6 hours on safety and functional fundamentals...
    Interesting post. I wonder if all NC classes are taught by lawyers? As far as I've ever known, it is against the law to give legal advice without being a licensed attorney, and the content you describe sure seems to meet that definition. The curriculum for each concealed carry course is determined by the state who issues the permit. Perhaps the "legal advice / lawyer" thing is what keeps much of that out of the curriculum for most other states.

    Your post is full of interesting conundrums. The difference in "requirements" imposed by each state really boils down to how much that particular state has decided to infringe upon a right that "shall not be infringed". Or more accurately, how much infringing the citizens of that state have decided to allow their government to get away with.

    I think everyone agrees that those who carry should know how to carry properly and safely. But many will disagree that the government should impose a hoop to jump through before you are "allowed" to exercise that right. This is not a new discussion, of course.

    I don't really see that there is much difference, as far as legal obligations or responsibilities go, between OCing and CCing. Certainly not enough to justify two completely different courses of training.

    TFred



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    Evilbutters wrote:
    can i get my CCW permit in VA if i had a misdemenor DUI like 2 years ago. just wondering if its a waste to take a ccw class if i cant get one :celebrate
    Three years in Virginia and SIX years in Utah.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    ProShooter,

    Don't get me wrong. The Utah Course of yours that I attended last Saturday was VERY professional, well-presented, and informative. The booklet you supply with the course is full of all sorts of useful, educational information, and the inclusion of the Statutes in the back is VERY helpful. I enjoyed this course, and got a lot out of it. I understand tha tthe requirements for instruction and qualification for a Utah permit are VERY different than what we have here in NC. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just different.

    I'm not bashing your coursework, by any means. Your class was very professionally presented.

    I was just surprised that Utah's (and from what I've seen, VA too) requirements for the course don't include more in-depth discussions about things like "Castle Laws", or "duty to retreat" and situations that constitute "justificable use of deadly force".

    This is based on my experience in NC, where the majority of a CHP course is about those issues. Most instructors in NC tell you up front that you need to be familiar with your firearm BEFORE you take a NC CHP course. Part of that is, because NC has a range qualification, and CHP instructors just don't have time to train people "at the line"...



    TFred,

    As far as I know, there aren't many (if any) NC CHP instructors who are lawyers. Many of them ARE retired municipal police or Deputies, though. The course material in NC is not really up to the discretion of the instructor. Like most states (including Utah) the State very specifically outlines what must be covered in a CHP course. Every instructor will do it a little differently, I'm sure, and their booklets will all be a little different too. But like most states (including UT and VA), there are specific issues that must be covered for the course to be approved by the State. In NC, much of the required subject matter involves "when to shoot", and there is very little emphasis on "how to shoot" except for the range qualification, where you have to shoot above a specified score.

    In NC, we are required to watch a video (as part of the course) produced by a professor of Criminal Justice from UNC (I think that's where he was from) that goes over several different scenarios and discusses various other "justifiable use" issues.

    And we go over the statutes, and discuss various scenarios, and the instructor lets us know how various things might play out, based on case law, statutes, (and in my case) his own 15+ years as a LEO.

    I'm not bashing VA or UT or any other state. I'm just saying that I did not realize that the requirements were SO different from state to state. And in light of this, I can sort of understand why the National CC Reciprocity bill that was in Congress last year wasn't the "slam dunk" we all thought it would be. Even though that bill was mostly shot down by the "anti" states that don't recognize ANYONE'S permits (like CA, IL NY, NJ, and MD), I can sort of understand how some of the more pro-2A (and even several "shall issue") states might have issues with National Reciprocity.

    I don't agree with that standpoint--I think NH, AK and soon-to-be AZ have it right with "constitutional carry" that requires no permits at all. But I can understand how some states might have issues with states that don't require a written exam, or don't require range qualifications, or don't require "safety training", or whatever.

    Funny thing is, in states like MD where it is virtually impossible for an average citizen to get a permit, there is NO requirement for legal training in their application process. The requirement in MD is a basic state-approved safety course. The only training in the law you need to get a MD permit is training in how to donate lots of money to powerful politicians...

    The amazing diversity of our States is what makes the USA such a fantastic place. It is the cultural, political, and regional differences that make this nation great. But the mish-mash of differing cultures, legal systems, and social norms is ALSO one of the things that makes getting ANYTHING accomplished with regards to legal issues on a national scale a REAL headache sometimes.

    That's all I'm saying...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  15. #15
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    ProShooter,

    Don't get me wrong. The Utah Course of yours that I attended last Saturday was VERY professional, well-presented, and informative. The booklet you supply with the course is full of all sorts of useful, educational information, and the inclusion of the Statutes in the back is VERY helpful. I enjoyed this course, and got a lot out of it. I understand tha tthe requirements for instruction and qualification for a Utah permit are VERY different than what we have here in NC. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just different.

    I'm not bashing your coursework, by any means. Your class was very professionally presented.

    I was just surprised that Utah's (and from what I've seen, VA too) requirements for the course don't include more in-depth discussions about things like "Castle Laws", or "duty to retreat" and situations that constitute "justificable use of deadly force".

    This is based on my experience in NC, where the majority of a CHP course is about those issues. Most instructors in NC tell you up front that you need to be familiar with your firearm BEFORE you take a NC CHP course. Part of that is, because NC has a range qualification, and CHP instructors just don't have time to train people "at the line"...



    Dreamer,

    Thank you for the compliments. I do appreciate it. I think the answer to your question is as I stated earlier. When you take a "in state" course like you did in NC, they can discuss things relative to NC law because all attendees are residents. The Utah program touches on Civil liability, and the other topics and includes the legal section. The gap comes in because the students who take the course are not all residents of Utah, and the laws on Castle doctrine, deadly force, etc will vary from one state to another. What is reasonable in Texas or NC or Utah may or may not be reasonable where a student lives. No course can provide you instruction on each state's laws, or principles since they will all vary.


    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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