What if someone tries to take my firearm?

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Hello, I've been open carrying for over 2 years in Tucson, AZ. I've recently met a beautiful woman who is interested in getting a revolver for OC'ing. Yesterday she brought up a good point that I didn't know how to answer.

Legally speaking, would she be able to use draw/deadly force if someone were to try to grab the gun while shes in line at say a walmart?

I've had situations were people keep inching closer and closer to my hip and it makes me uncomfortable, I'll usually turn the gun away from them and make sure I make eye contact, and also keeping my elbow on the butt of the gun. My holster has retention so they would have to fight a bit for it, but I think in that situation I would probably hit/push them back and draw on them. Not sure if I would be legal in this situation but the idea of letting my pistol go, and putting myself and others in danger outweighs the risk of jail time or loss my carry rights. If the gun were to leave my possession, whos to say that he would run or shoot/rob someone immediately after? Wouldn't he be considered armed and dangerous as soon as he touched my/her gun?

This is what I told her but I said I would research it. I'm having trouble finding any specifics.

Thanks much!

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hey I'm from Michigan. Detroit area. A few thoughts. I am a certified executive protection agent. 99% of the time I carry concealed. Unless I am taking a principle to the hospital where it's illegal to CC. I would then, OC. anyhow, I would say if I was OC and someone tried to grab my firearm, I would have to fight tooth and nail. If they had a weapon trying to grab it, justified shoot. If they are not armed trying to take possession, not justified. If they gain possession, I would definitely go to my backup and it becomes a life in danger moment. Up until that point though, blunt force brotha. Think about what a jury would say. Maybe they would think, well he didn't have to open carry, even though it's a right, he put himself in that position. However, if subject gained possession, lethal force would be justified.
It's confusing.

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usnsubmarine wrote:

I've had situations were people keep inching closer and closer to my hip and it makes me uncomfortable, I'll usually turn the gun away from them and make sure I make eye contact, and also keeping my elbow on the butt of the gun. My holster has retention so they would have to fight a bit for it, but I think in that situation I would probably hit/push them back and draw on them. Not sure if I would be legal in this situation...

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If someone makes a move for the pistol, they're an imminent threat, doubly so if they actually lay hands on it... I doubt that you'll have any problem with AZ law in using as much force as needed to make them stop. There are techniques police officer are taught which are not only good to know--anyone who chooses to OC would be wise to practice some of them with a friend, preferably to the point that your action is automatic.

OC'd pistol or not, I value my personal space. If someone inches up to an uncomfortable distance, I'll usually confront them, in a friendly tone: "You know, we western folk like the big sky and wide open spaces." Usually they get it.

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I'd say that if someone began violating your space, you need to do everything possible to clear the situation. If they actually lay hands on it then I'dengage and try to fight clear. If they gain possession, then you gotta go for backup, try to regainor surrender.

I have had people bump me while CC'ing and once a child backed up into my gun in a grocery line which caused me a moment's concern until I realized the kid was focused on his parents moving the cart.

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Defend the gun. By defending the gun you're defending yourself and bystanders. You can't know intent... so assume the worst and act accordingly. Push comes to shove... shoot 'em.

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"Hit/push them back and draw on them" That's a start and might work in a few situations. Why don't you go down the road and train for the other situations? Hardware is a small part of self defense, develop your software. Learn what really works. http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

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ecocks wrote:

I'd say that if someone began violating your space, you need to do everything possible to clear the situation. If they actually lay hands on it then I'dengage and try to fight clear. If they gain possession, then you gotta go for backup, try to regainor surrender.

I have had people bump me while CC'ing and once a child backed up into my gun in a grocery line which caused me a moment's concern until I realized the kid was focused on his parents moving the cart.

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THIS 100%

Police technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ok79o2NAhA&feature=related


I prefer the Krav techniques i was taught and would love to starting taking it again when I get the time and money for it.

Krav Maga technigue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-zvz71WnXQ&feature=related

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Yes, pick your technique and do your best.

That's your only real option once someone engages you that close.

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the concepts, and ideas of this thread are getting a real workout in the milwaukee area as of late. it's getting pretty grim, and very dangerous out there in the real world.:uhoh:

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Check this out it does work.



http://officer.com/video/POSA_Video_Tips/Gun_Grab_Technique/14987918001:14358291001::::::7/

But from what I have seen on here no gun has ever been taken from a OCer so why worry about it.

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In accordance with The Arizona Revised Statutes, Arizona Code ARS 13-421 reads:

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

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usnsubmarine wrote:

...SNIP...Legally speaking, would she be able to use draw/deadly force if someone were to try to grab the gun while shes in line at say a walmart?...SNIP...

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Just my opinion if someone attempts to take possession of your firearm, I think that a reasonable person would be able to conclude that they intend to use it against you or someone else and it is reasonable to be in fear of your life at that moment and you should use what ever force necessary to stop them from taking your firearm and stopping the threat.

That being said you have to practice, practice and then practice some more weapon retention drills.

Not directed at the OP, but people who decide to carry firearms must get proper training and practice, practice practice. Just strapping one on does not make you competent.

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I'm not a lawyer, but I am another Arizonan.

In the situation you describe, if someone is actively trying to take your weapon, you really have no choice but to assume they intend to use it. That puts YOUR life in danger since you are now disarmed and the other guy is very much armed. Preventing that from happening calls for at LEAST the *threat* of deadly force.

With all the things that have changed in AZ law in the last year or two, it's best to verify the heck out of it, but I would not hesitate to draw down on an aggressor if they were making an active grab for my gun. Ideally you can fight back enough, manage to keep the gun holstered, and prevent the whole thing from escalating to that level, but in the case of your future ball and chain (just kidding! hehe) she may not have that ability if there is a disparity of force (ie: the other person is simply bigger and able to overpower her.)

That said, you seem to be right on the mark between situational awareness, retention holster, elbow over the gun, etc. and I'd make sure she knows or learns that as well. Additionally, it may be worth taking some classes that focus on firearm retention and/or disarming to be better prepared to handle such a situation. I haven't taken any classes there myself other than my CCW, but SGC does have just such a class:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&Itemid=79

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I know all the cops and all the CCW instructors are gonna chime in and holler NO... but I carry cross draw at the 10 O'Clock position at a 45 deg angle. No way anybody's going to 'come up from behind' 'n place a hand on the gun. We civilians are not in the arrest business... so that caution is out the door. You can also easily draw while seated with your seat belt on. Particularly if you carry a large pistol instead of a mouse gun. This land was settled and conquered by 'cross draw' types.

I carry the mag pouch just behind the holster. The whole rig on a separate gunbelt.

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Cross-draw has some very good advantages, a bit harder for someone to snach out of the holster from behind , can draw better when seated a big plus when driving.

However it does take longer to draw and get it on the target due to the additional motions you need in order to draw and it may be simpler to snatch face to face. But then again nothings perfect.

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i agree with many of your points, and expressed views. but that scenario didn't play out well in milwaukee recently.

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I am guessing you are talking about http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

I have my questions about that situation, if he was just a man with a gun or a armed citizen? The difference being the armed citizen knows his/her local law, has taken the initiative and personal responsibility to obtain professional training and practices that training and has made the moral and ethical decision that they are going to protect themselves when the time comes and not have to depend on someone else to do that for them. Versus the guy with a gun who wears one cause it's cool and the law says he can and people won't mess with him

That is not to say that with the proper training (situational awareness, retention techniques) and practice that your gun can never be taken away from you but it sure reduces the likelihood.

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dave, i'd realy rather not elaborate on the subject. it envolves one of our own.

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That's cool, I didn't know that.