Sometimes Open Carry doesn't work

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I'll toss this one in:

“Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” - Col. Jeff Cooper

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Shotgun wrote:

I'll toss this one in:

“Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” - Col. Jeff Cooper

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Good quote;

How 'bout this one:
"Having a handgun beats 4 aces every time." Hardballer

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hardballer wrote:

I disagree. A single mom with her two year old in her arms crouched next to her bed without a gun is at the mercy of a BG. The same scenario, Gun in her hand. . . I think she is safer.

Out on the street, you are chased to a place of hiding, you have no weapon, they pull you out and beat the livin' sh-- out of you or worse.

The same scenario, you have a gun, you can't hit the broad side of a barn but just the sight of the gun chases the BGs off.

I think you are safer with the gun.

One of my favorite sayings: "God made man, they say, Sam Colt made em' equal, more or less."

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Guns are tools, inanimate objects, not some sort of defense shield. An armed person has one more tool at their disposal which they may use properly, improperly, or not at all.

Guns do not create or solve problems, but may allow for a different outcome.

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hardballer wrote:

I disagree. A single mom with her two year old in her arms crouched next to her bed without a gun is at the mercy of a BG. The same scenario, Gun in her hand. . . I think she is safer.

Out on the street, you are chased to a place of hiding, you have no weapon, they pull you out and beat the livin' sh-- out of you or worse.

The same scenario, you have a gun, you can't hit the broad side of a barn but just the sight of the gun chases the BGs off.

I think you are safer with the gun.

One of my favorite sayings: "God made man, they say, Sam Colt made em' equal, more or less."

Click to expand...

I would like to agree, but if a person that is unwilling to take the life of a bad guy, has a gun, he/she will be lucky to live past the theft of said gun. I do not know enough about this gun theft, but I am under the impression that the BG had to help with the removal of the holster... In this case (again I don't have all the info), the BG would have had to kill me as far as I see it. The vic in this case is a very lucky person. I would have thought the BG would have used his new gun for the first time that day. Again, I don't think any of us have all the needed info to be sure of much in this case. Hell, for all I know, the BG was an EX-friend...

If you will not use it (when you need it), please leave it at home. It is for your and my own good. To carry a gun on your hip is not just some simple action. It is a choice that one should give a lot of thought to. If needed, you might be put in a position that requires you to take the life of a person. If you can not handle that, leave your gun at home. Understand, today I have one more gun on the streets near my home. It does not make me happy...

I shop at the Pick n Save right next to the location that this theft happened. I carry about 95% of the time. I hope to God this kind of thing never happens to me. I would hate to spend the time in jail waiting for my court date...

Two in the center mass...

Aaron

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Brad_Krause wrote:

hardballer wrote:

I disagree. A single mom with her two year old in her arms crouched next to her bed without a gun is at the mercy of a BG. The same scenario, Gun in her hand. . . I think she is safer.

Out on the street, you are chased to a place of hiding, you have no weapon, they pull you out and beat the livin' sh-- out of you or worse.

The same scenario, you have a gun, you can't hit the broad side of a barn but just the sight of the gun chases the BGs off.

I think you are safer with the gun.

One of my favorite sayings: "God made man, they say, Sam Colt made em' equal, more or less."

Click to expand...

Guns do not create or solve problems, but may allow for a different outcome.

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Guns do solve problems. They do change outcomes. Not having a gun will solve your problem too. The outcome may be different than you might care for though.

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AaronS wrote:

hardballer wrote:

I disagree. A single mom with her two year old in her arms crouched next to her bed without a gun is at the mercy of a BG. The same scenario, Gun in her hand. . . I think she is safer.

Out on the street, you are chased to a place of hiding, you have no weapon, they pull you out and beat the livin' sh-- out of you or worse.

The same scenario, you have a gun, you can't hit the broad side of a barn but just the sight of the gun chases the BGs off.

I think you are safer with the gun.

One of my favorite sayings: "God made man, they say, Sam Colt made em' equal, more or less."

Click to expand...

I would like to agree, but if a person that is unwilling to take the life of a bad guy, has a gun, he/she will be lucky to live past the theft of said gun.  I do not know enough about this gun theft, but I am under the impression that the BG had to help with the removal of the holster...  In this case (again I don't have all the info), the BG would have had to kill me as far as I see it.  The vic in this case is a very lucky person.  I would have thought the BG would have used his new gun for the first time that day.  Again, I don't think any of us have all the needed info to be sure of much in this case.  Hell, for all I know, the BG was an EX-friend...

If you will not use it (when you need it), please leave it at home.  It is for your and my own good.  To carry a gun on your hip is not just some simple action.  It is a choice that one should give a lot of thought to.  If needed, you might be put in a position that requires you to take the life of a person.  If you can not handle that, leave your gun at home.  Understand, today I have one more gun on the streets near my home.  It does not make me happy...

I shop at the Pick n Save right next to the location that this theft happened.  I carry about 95% of the time.  I hope to God this kind of thing never happens to me.  I would hate to spend the time in jail waiting for my court date...

Two in the center mass...

Aaron

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Each person who carries will ultimately have to figure out for themselves if they can follow through with whatever force is required to repel an attack. I suspect it is never a sure thing.

Sitting here typing, one can be as brave as can be. I know that the only time I have had a gun shoved in my face, I was able to talk my way through it and did not need a gun.
As a matter of fact, it would have gone a whole other way had I been armed.

That was then, this is now. Now I am older, slower and not in the mood for any crap at all. That is not to say I would draw down, slap leather with a bad guy as my first choice but I would use whatever force is necessary to protect myself and my loved ones. My wife is probably more adamant than I am about this.

BGs will grow in numbers now as the months go by. Some BGs will be desperate individuals who are out of options (or so they think) and see you as a meal ticket or a way out. Others are just bad people with evil intent. You can either be a victim or victor - you decide.

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It sure makes me think about the states that have only unloaded carry. What the hell is one to do with an unloaded gun? It is just a $600 chunk of metal... And I would think a very nice target for a thug. If the thug know guns at all, he could just wait for that $1200 Kimber to walk up to him, and take that one also. Hey a good criminal should be able to pick up $3k in no time. Thank God for laws...:banghead:

This just pisses me off to no end... Think I am going to unholster, and tip a few...

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AaronS wrote:

It sure makes me think about the states that have only unloaded carry. What the hell is one to do with an unloaded gun? It is just a $600 chunk of metal... And I would think a very nice target for a thug. If the thug know guns at all, he could just wait for that $1200 Kimber to walk up to him, and take that one also. Hey a good criminal should be able to pick up $3k in no time. Thank God for laws...:banghead:

This just pisses me off to no end... Think I am going to unholster, and tip a few...

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As the pioneer member of one of those states that only allow unloaded carry in incorporated territory,I can tell you even our opposition has pointed out while supporting their legislation to ban UOC, that our firearms are demonstrably loadable in mere seconds.

Granted, having to load the firearm makes it difficult to bring it to bear, but both situational awareness and the emplementation of contingencies could prevent an assailant from taking our $600 chunk of metal.

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ConditionThree wrote:

AaronS wrote:

It sure makes me think about the states that have only unloaded carry. What the hell is one to do with an unloaded gun? It is just a $600 chunk of metal... And I would think a very nice target for a thug. If the thug know guns at all, he could just wait for that $1200 Kimber to walk up to him, and take that one also. Hey a good criminal should be able to pick up $3k in no time. Thank God for laws...:banghead:

This just pisses me off to no end... Think I am going to unholster, and tip a few...

Click to expand...

As the pioneer member of one of those states that only allow unloaded carry in incorporated territory,I can tell you even our opposition has pointed out while supporting their legislation to ban UOC, that our firearms are demonstrably loadable in mere seconds.

Granted, having to load the firearm makes it difficult to bring it to bear, but both situational awareness and the emplementation of contingencies could prevent an assailant from taking our $600 chunk of metal.

Click to expand...

And unfortunately those unnecessary legislatively obligatory "mere seconds" could be the difference in whether you survive or die. No matter how fast one can perform the task of loading and bring a firearm into play, it's impossible for it to be faster or as fast as bringing an already loaded and chambered firearm into play. One simply cannot insert an extra set of motions into a formula in "zero time."

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Shotgun wrote:

ConditionThree wrote:

AaronS wrote:

It sure makes me think about the states that have only unloaded carry. What the hell is one to do with an unloaded gun? It is just a $600 chunk of metal... And I would think a very nice target for a thug. If the thug know guns at all, he could just wait for that $1200 Kimber to walk up to him, and take that one also. Hey a good criminal should be able to pick up $3k in no time. Thank God for laws...:banghead:

This just pisses me off to no end... Think I am going to unholster, and tip a few...

Click to expand...

As the pioneer member of one of those states that only allow unloaded carry in incorporated territory,I can tell you even our opposition has pointed out while supporting their legislation to ban UOC, that our firearms are demonstrably loadable in mere seconds.

Granted, having to load the firearm makes it difficult to bring it to bear, but both situational awareness and the emplementation of contingencies could prevent an assailant from taking our $600 chunk of metal.

Click to expand...

And unfortunately those unnecessary legislatively obligatory "mere seconds" could be the difference in whether you survive or die. No matter how fast one can perform the task of loading and bring a firearm into play, it's impossible for it to be faster or as fast as bringing an already loaded and chambered firearm into play. One simply cannot insert an extra set of motions into a formula in "zero time."

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I agree, Leave the condition three for at home, if you have small children and you are afraid they may handle the firearm without you knowing. Then when you go out go to condition 1. Just don't forget to go back to condition 3 when you get back home. If you become accustom to this it will be no problem for you at all and less worry about the little ones.

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Unfortunately our friend in California doesn't have the option of "condition three" only at home. He's required by law to carry it that way in public. My criticism is directed at the state which endangers lives with it's stupid law.

I wouldn't leave a firearm in condition three where it is accessible to children. I believe even young kids could easily imitate racking a slide from seeing it done in person or on TV. Nor would I rely on a kid not having the strength or coordination to perform that task. They might not understand what they are doing, but that wouldn't stop them from imitating what they've seen done elsewhere.

Around children my firearms would be locked up and out of sight unless under my direct control, i.e., in my hand or holster, or within my reach only. Under my direct control they can be in condition 1 or condition 0.

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bhancock:

Of course a crook can shoot you just as dead with one gun as with two. That isn't the point of the comment. The point is it gets another "clean" gun into the criminal environment. That isn't an anrti-gun comment. It is reality. A crook that has a miniscule amount of street smarts knows how valuable a "clean" gun is on the "black market". He knows he can gettwo to three times its value by selling it in a back alley than he can from a pawn shop. By a "clean" gun I mean one that can only be traced back to its previous law-abiding owner.

Unfortunately some of the more brazen crooks may look at snatching a gun from an open carrier as less risky than stealing one in a burglary. Catching a carrier off-guard and overpowering him\her in an isolated location may seem more safe that possiblyhaving a living room light come on and hear the rack of a 12 gauge slide action shotgun. That is why when we open carry we must be ever vigilant and never allow ourselve to get into a vulnerable situation. Most of us are not 6feet plus and 230 pounds of muscle as is Nik. A gun on our hip doesn't make us superman. Physically were are just as weak as we were without the weapon.

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Shotgun wrote:

Unfortunately our friend in California doesn't have the option of "condition three" only at home. He's required by law to carry it that way in public. My criticism is directed at the state which endangers lives with it's stupid law.

I wouldn't leave a firearm in condition three where it is accessible to children. I believe even young kids could easily imitate racking a slide from seeing it done in person or on TV. Nor would I rely on a kid not having the strength or coordination to perform that task. They might not understand what they are doing, but that wouldn't stop them from imitating what they've seen done elsewhere.

Around children my firearms would be locked up and out of sight unless under my direct control, i.e., in my hand or holster, or within my reach only. Under my direct control they can be in condition 1 or condition 0.

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Good point. I agree

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Captain Nemo wrote:

bhancock:

Of course a crook can shoot you just as dead with one gun as with two. That isn't the point of the comment. The point is it gets another "clean" gun into the criminal environment. That isn't an anrti-gun comment. It is reality. A crook that has a miniscule amount of street smarts knows how valuable a "clean" gun is on the "black market". He knows he can gettwo to three times its value by selling it in a back alley than he can from a pawn shop. By a "clean" gun I mean one that can only be traced back to its previous law-abiding owner.

Unfortunately some of the more brazen crooks may look at snatching a gun from an open carrier as less risky than stealing one in a burglary. Catching a carrier off-guard and overpowering himher in an isolated location may seem more safe that possiblyhaving a living room light come on and hear the rack of a 12 gauge slide action shotgun. That is why when we open carry we must be ever vigilant and never allow ourselve to get into a vulnerable situation. Most of us are not 6feet plus and 230 pounds of muscle as is Nik. A gun on our hip doesn't make us superman. Physically were are just as weak as we were without the weapon.

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Nemo,
Ya sorry for going off. It just seemed as if the victim was being criminalized for losing his gun, almost as if this was a crime worse than the original. We need to be vigilant but as you stated I am just as weak physically with my gun as without it. I have not had any specific amount of training that could ultimately prevent me from losing my weapon to a criminal/s. I hope that I don't face those circumstances and if I do, I trust I will be as prepared as possible. If I do lose my gun in an unfortunate set of circumstances I would hope that my friends would help me debrief through what happened and not just say that I should have done this or have studied some form of self defense that they seem comfortable and confident with. It seems that some are quick to judge whether or not you had any business carrying a gun in the first place. My wife hasn't had any formal training, but she knows how to operate and has practiced a little with the firearms that I feel are most important for our security and defense. I feel much better about leaving her alone with a gun and limited training than with no gun, but I can't guarantee she would be able to retain the weapon in a confrontation, then again perhaps, not being on the forum, she wouldn't analyze the situation as much and just fear for her life and pull the trigger.

Thanks for the info on the 'clean' gun. I have been kinda removed from the seriously criminal environment for a few years. I know the threat is out there though, that's one of the reasons I Carry On.

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Condition Three:

Bringing a firearm to battery in a few seconds is much different when practicing than when doing it while you are trying to keep from peeing your pants.

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Captain Nemo wrote:

Condition Three:

Bringing a firearm to battery in a few seconds is much different when practicing than when doing it while you are trying to keep from peeing your pants.

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And in the same vein a gun doesn't do much good no matter how much of a good ol boy you are if you do not have situational awareness. Boogermen specifically target people like that because they know their odds are really good that they will get away with their mischief.

It can work both ways.

Robber takes cell phone, victim grabs gun

RACINE - Racine police were contacted at 11:42 p.m. Thursday, July 8, by a 31-year-old man who said he had been robbed, and had taken the robber's gun.

Reports said the victim was walking in the 1400 block of Perry Avenue when one of two robbery suspects yelled at him and pointed a revolver at him. The man told police he was ordered to the ground, but on his way down, he grabbed the robber's gun.

Police said the two men struggled and a second robbery suspect took the victim's cell phone. The victim then ran south with the gun, which he turned over to officers.

The first suspect was described as a black man in his early 20s, 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 9 inches tall, 140 pounds and wearing a black baseball cap, blue shirt and jeans. The second suspect was described as a black man in his early 20s, 5 feet 9 inches tall, 170 pounds, and wearing a white T-shirt and light blue shorts.

springfield 1911 said:

Robber takes cell phone, victim grabs gun

RACINE - Racine police were contacted at 11:42 p.m. Thursday, July 8, by a 31-year-old man who said he had been robbed, and had taken the robber's gun.

Reports said the victim was walking in the 1400 block of Perry Avenue when one of two robbery suspects yelled at him and pointed a revolver at him. The man told police he was ordered to the ground, but on his way down, he grabbed the robber's gun.

Police said the two men struggled and a second robbery suspect took the victim's cell phone. The victim then ran south with the gun, which he turned over to officers.

The first suspect was described as a black man in his early 20s, 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 9 inches tall, 140 pounds and wearing a black baseball cap, blue shirt and jeans. The second suspect was described as a black man in his early 20s, 5 feet 9 inches tall, 170 pounds, and wearing a white T-shirt and light blue shorts.

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So bad guy has a homing device or a pretty useless paper weight and absolutely no bragging rights with his buds. I just love to see a story like this. I am waiting to see if he is one of the dumb criminals that will report his gun has been stolen.