Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: LEO Booted from Cafe

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Riverside, California, USA
    Posts
    638

    Post imported post

    I came across this video and thought it unfair that when someone gets kicked out for open carry in uniform that CNN is all sympathetic with this person, but when you or I get kicked out, it's OK.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112VpXHe6F8
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    There are a couple other threads with good info, too.

    In one of the threads there is a link tothe shop manager's laterpress conference whereaddresses why he wasn't comfortable with a cop remainingin his coffee shop. It basically adds up tocops can get away with stuff with no accountability.

    One of the previous threads was locked, if I recall, for devolving into general cop-bashing. If you post, please do not make general cop-bashing cops since such is not appreciated by the moderators and they will lock the thread.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Temecula, California, USA
    Posts
    1,660

    Post imported post

    I'd like to know whereis this lady's outrage and letters for all the otherpeople who areoppressed for gun carry by birthright? Has she forgotten about the non-uniformed, you know the non-state agents, ie regular citizens?

    I couldn't quite figure out why the shop didn't want this cop there though. Was it because they don't like cops? Or guns? Or both? Are they liberty minded, freedom loving individuals, or just wacko free-love types?


    ETA: OK, watched the vid again. The manager thinks the cops persecute "house-less people." But what is with the cop playing the "segregation" card?!
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama, ,
    Posts
    1,338

    Post imported post

    Also strangely silent when it was BHO's SS who were making the DC cops leave.

    Didn't say if he would need to arrest himself if he goes back.
    If there is a crime there, does he stand on the sidewalk and yell questions
    through the door, or call someone else in to handle it?

    but +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.


  5. #5
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.
    Where did this particular officer demonstrate an attitude that he felt he was above the law? If he was being disrespectful, rude, loud, or trying to intimidate customers I could see asking him to leave, however none of that happened from what was said. I have never been asked to leave an establishment where my mere presence made someone feel unsafe. I have however seen far too many people complain about being kicked out of places for this very thing and hearing them rant about how they were wronged as there was no threatening behavior associated with just being armed.

    My support is with the officer on this one and not the manager. I have had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.

    Sorry SlackwareRobert, -1 for the owner "standing up for his customers". Thank goodness Starbucks did not take the same approach and kick us out because we made a few customers not feel safe!

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Riverside, California, USA
    Posts
    638

    Post imported post

    What I found outrageous is the very end of the CNN interview:
    But this incident had Cornelia disgusted; so much soshe wrote a blog about it. She says Officer Crooker isn't just a policeman, he's a human being.

    "And I feel a human being was humiliated." [Cornelia Seigneur]
    Andhow comethis same sentiment wasn't expressed by the mainstream media when open carriers got booted from Peets, California Pizza Kitchen, and that Steakhouse?

    I guess we're not human and we deserve to be humiliated.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

  7. #7
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Temecula, California, USA
    Posts
    1,660

    Post imported post

    Rottie wrote:
    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.
    My support is with the officer on this one and not the manager. I have had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.

    Sorry SlackwareRobert, -1 for the owner "standing up for his customers". Thank goodness Starbucks did not take the same approach and kick us out because we made a few customers not feel safe!
    You clearly have not open carried in the PRK much. But your point is well taken.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Rottie wrote:
    SNIP Ihave had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.
    I don't think the issue is so simple asgeneralizing the bad actions of a few.

    I think it is more in the direction of the fact that any LEO who remains on a force must hold some amount of agreement with the ne'er-do-wells on that force and the policies that result in little to no accountability. If any given LEO disagreed sufficiently, he'd resign, protest, or work to get changes. It makes him a part of the problem.

    How much does the cop in front you agree or disagree? How can you tell in just a momentary ineraction? Are you obligated to risk that he has enough agreement to do something adverse to your interests?

    Also, if you know of problems in a given department, are you obligated to take a "standard" approach like writing a letter to the editor or your councilman? Are you obligated againstmaking a strong statement if an opportunity presents itself that may get a lot more attention and put the issue in front of many people?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama, ,
    Posts
    1,338

    Post imported post

    Rottie wrote:
    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.
    Where did this particular officer demonstrate an attitude that he felt he was above the law? If he was being disrespectful, rude, loud, or trying to intimidate customers I could see asking him to leave, however none of that happened from what was said. I have never been asked to leave an establishment where my mere presence made someone feel unsafe. I have however seen far too many people complain about being kicked out of places for this very thing and hearing them rant about how they were wronged as there was no threatening behavior associated with just being armed.

    My support is with the officer on this one and not the manager. I have had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.

    Sorry SlackwareRobert, -1 for the owner "standing up for his customers". Thank goodness Starbucks did not take the same approach and kick us out because we made a few customers not feel safe!
    Well if the owner allows civilians to OC, and not leo I would change my mind on it.
    But I doubt that is the case.

    I don't think the officer expressed any attitude, but the media by their 'outrage'
    seems to think this can't be done, they should just report he must leave like any
    other citizen when asked by the owner of an establishment.

    Starbucks policy is to obey local laws, I don't see how an owner who bans OC
    and insists on no exceptions is any different.

    Maybe the owner had a bad childhood experience with leather belts and
    authority figures. Possibly went in front of our spanking judge in Montgomery
    on some jaywalking charge.

    Common sense if you have a lot of less then stellar 'clients' would be to go out
    of your way to befriend the local beat cops. But this is america and stupidity
    isn't a crime.



  10. #10
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rosamond, California, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    Rottie wrote:
    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.
    Where did this particular officer demonstrate an attitude that he felt he was above the law? If he was being disrespectful, rude, loud, or trying to intimidate customers I could see asking him to leave, however none of that happened from what was said. I have never been asked to leave an establishment where my mere presence made someone feel unsafe. I have however seen far too many people complain about being kicked out of places for this very thing and hearing them rant about how they were wronged as there was no threatening behavior associated with just being armed.

    My support is with the officer on this one and not the manager. I have had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.

    Sorry SlackwareRobert, -1 for the owner "standing up for his customers". Thank goodness Starbucks did not take the same approach and kick us out because we made a few customers not feel safe!
    Well if the owner allows civilians to OC, and not leo I would change my mind on it.
    But I doubt that is the case.

    I don't think the officer expressed any attitude, but the media by their 'outrage'
    seems to think this can't be done, they should just report he must leave like any
    other citizen when asked by the owner of an establishment.

    Starbucks policy is to obey local laws, I don't see how an owner who bans OC
    and insists on no exceptions is any different.

    Maybe the owner had a bad childhood experience with leather belts and
    authority figures. Possibly went in front of our spanking judge in Montgomery
    on some jaywalking charge.

    Common sense if you have a lot of less then stellar 'clients' would be to go out
    of your way to befriend the local beat cops. But this is america and stupidity
    isn't a crime.

    Banning OC in general wasn't even addressed by the owner. He was uncomfortable with a Police Office with a gun, because of his perception of harrassment of the "house-less" andshootings in the area supposedly by Police Officers.

    It was specifically a case of "I don't feel safe with a cop in my store!"

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    Posts
    130

    Post imported post

    I live in Portland part of the year so I will enlighten many of you here on the context of this incident. In the video the reporter said something like people can't trust the police in the wake of recent shootings. The portland police are notorious for heavy handed responses and have shot people who did not need to be shot. This is not my opinion, but most of portlands residents. One cop recently was suspended for road rage and pulling his personal weapon on a guy who cut him off.

    Now for my personal opinion.
    Portland is full of super lib hippies and it's not surprising that the cop was asked to leave. I would do the same if I was in his shoes. I OC there and have been stopped many times as the city has passed a law against OC, unless you have a valid CHL.

    An intersting side note. I have been stopped several times by PPD when I allowed my CCW to print or when the grip was revealed when I bent over to pick something up, and while OCing I have had very little negative contact with PPD over OC. Mostly "do you have a CHL?" I show it and I'm on my way. I had one cop come up to me in a verizon store and ask me what I was carrying and we chatted about guns till the que was up.

    Overall I think the PPD is ok, but I wouldn't blindly put my trust in them ever. I try to ignore them and hope for the same.


    EDIT- I will be making my temp move to Portland next week and am gonna head the the red and black to see what the owner has to say about civilians OCing there since so many have asked. If he is a true anarchist like they say then it should be ok, but knowing portland my guess is that they are a bunch of lib hippies touting themselves as anarchists.

  12. #12
    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Perris, Ca., California, USA
    Posts
    420

    Post imported post

    TheHossUSMC wrote:



    Portland is full of super lib hippies <--- YEP that's my first wife and she LIVES in Portland.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Rottie wrote:
    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    +1 for the owner standing up for his customers, and reminding the overlords
    they are not above the law.
    My support is with the officer on this one and not the manager. I have had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.

    Sorry SlackwareRobert, -1 for the owner "standing up for his customers". Thank goodness Starbucks did not take the same approach and kick us out because we made a few customers not feel safe!
    You clearly have not open carried in the PRK much. But your point is well taken.
    So when are you going to move from Kalifornia and come to Utah. We would be happy to accept a pro 2A transplant.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere out there
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    Rottie wrote:
    SNIP Ihave had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.
    I don't think the issue is so simple asgeneralizing the bad actions of a few.

    I think it is more in the direction of the fact that any LEO who remains on a force must hold some amount of agreement with the ne'er-do-wells on that force and the policies that result in little to no accountability. If any given LEO disagreed sufficiently, he'd resign, protest, or work to get changes. It makes him a part of the problem.
    In the case of the story of the portland officer it clearly was a case of assigning the blame of a few bad apples to one officer who frankly seemed like a decent guy and wants to get to know the needs of those he serves.

    I do disagree with your other point that if you remain with a department that has bad policies that it is somehow a manifestation of your sympathy or agreement. You do note however that if you choose to remain you should work to get changes. In the case of this officer and his department, this seems to be what he was doing by getting out and meeting with businesses and the public to know their needs. What this business owner did had no positive effect on his cause. He should have made the officer feel welcome and take the time in a positive manner to express his concerns, ask the officer his opinion, and ask that he make the concerns of the community known to his supervisors. Instead he closed the door on dialogue and disinfranchised an officer who has the potential to make a significant impact on one area of concern to him. On the flipside, if this officer agreed with the store owner on his position about the "House less", what a boost it could have been to know that the community supports him in his efforts to make meaningful changes to departmental approaches to the problem at hand.

    Back to the OP, I still think the officer was treated unfairly absent any other poor behavior. If this were a regular OC-er, without a badge, we'd be up in arms about the mistreatment, rail about violation of our rights, call this guy anti gun, and promise to withold patronage to his store. Those who think the business owner did the right thing absent any additional offensive conduct on the part of the officer, are letting their anti LEO biases show through. We should not hold this officer, or any officer, accountable for the poor behavior of others at their department. We should only hold them accountable for their own actions.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Rottie wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Rottie wrote:
    SNIP Ihave had great interactions with LEOs while open carrying and don't feel the need to be hostile to them or generalize the bad actions of a few to all others.
    I don't think the issue is so simple asgeneralizing the bad actions of a few.

    I think it is more in the direction of the fact that any LEO who remains on a force must hold some amount of agreement with the ne'er-do-wells on that force and the policies that result in little to no accountability. If any given LEO disagreed sufficiently, he'd resign, protest, or work to get changes. It makes him a part of the problem.
    SNIP We should not hold this officer, or any officer, accountable for the poor behavior of others at their department. We should only hold them accountable for their own actions.
    You understand such philosophy immediately means no one can hold the miscreant cops responsible. If the other cops can't or won't, and the miscreants won't hold themselves responsible, and the public can't hold them collectively responsible, who can get things changed? Effectively, I mean.

    Cops are a part of a team, an officially constituted one at that. The other team members have more than ample opportunity to clean the place up. Especially, if, as others say, there are only a very few bad cops. How can just a very few bad cops buck and resist the demand for ethics from such a strong majority of good cops?

    Also, how is it that these good cops, the heroes in blue, tough men and women who stand up to felons, cannot stand up to a "very few" bad cops? And, how is it that all the good cops will endanger themselves to "protect and serve", but fail to protect the public from bad cops?

    Holding the group responsible for the actions of team members is a very old method, and legitimate. The group, any group,has the opportunity to police themselves; a refusal to do so shows agreement or willingness to tolerate the bad apples.

    From what little has been offered, it sounds like this coffee shop manager has more knowledge of what is happening in the local PD, or perhaps, what is not happening.

    The bottom line is that it is going to take public pressure. Holding the mayor responsible by voting him out of office is an act of holding him responsible for the acts of others. I see no reason why an individual member of the public cannot and should not bring pressure when he sees an opportunity.

    Holding the individual cops responsible for the actions of others only becomes necessary when the cops, or any group, doesn't take care of their own problems. From another angle, lets say a highly dedicated and professional department instantly handles any abuses of authority, firmly. And such things remain rare. Then, when one does occur, I as a member of the public can know that while nobody is an angel and somebody is gonna screw up sooner or later, I know it will be dealtwith swiftly and permanently.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    I became ill at the lobotomized actions taken by the cafe's owner and his cohorts, so I spent the last hour slamming his brand of idiocy all over YouTube.

    I feel much better, now.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  17. #17
    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    ,,
    Posts
    276
    Quote Originally Posted by PincheOgro1 View Post
    TheHossUSMC wrote:



    Portland is full of super lib hippies <--- YEP that's my first wife and she LIVES in Portland.
    You can add Eugene, OR to the list of cities with a lot of former hippies, a lot of present-day liberals and progressives. There are also a lot of nice people who live there. My in-laws lived there when alive and I still have a number of friends living there.
    The words of a tyrant: I never entertain opposing opinions. I am always right.

    Socialism is just another dirty word for totalitarianism.

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -Patrick Henry

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Red Bluff, California, USA
    Posts
    167
    Quote Originally Posted by Rottie View Post
    Citizen wrote:
    Those who think the business owner did the right thing absent any additional offensive conduct on the part of the officer, are letting their anti LEO biases show through.
    What about the businesses right to "refuse service to anyone"??

    He has a right to refuse service to anyone, police officers included.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •