.380 curiousity

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I certainly agree that the perceived recoil ofthe .380's I have firedis "snappier" than the 9's and .40's.

It's like thatstrange tendency of everyone to assume all women should start with a .380.My wife felt the .40 was solid and the recoil was more front-to-back horizontal than vertical. Different strokes though.

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380 usually means a small light pistol. That is where much of the snappiness comes from. My wife loves her LCP but shoots her 40 when looking for point scores.

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jeeper1 wrote:

The CZ82 is a 12+1 380acp pistol with a 3 3/4 inch barrel.

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correction.

The CZ82 is chambered for the Makarov 9mm (9x18)

.380 acp is 9x17 (also referred to as the 9mm short)

Ruger/Parabellum 9 mm is 9x 19

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Task Force 16 wrote:

jeeper1 wrote:

The CZ82 is a 12+1 380acp pistol with a 3 3/4 inch barrel.

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correction.

The CZ82 is chambered for the Makarov 9mm (9x18)

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You're right, I meant to say CZ83. I have a couple of CZ82's.

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Yes, the CZ82 is 9 mm Makarov (9x18 mm) whilst the CZ83 is the same pistol chambered in .380 (9x17 mm aka 9 mm short). The 9x18 is sort of interesting in that the Soviets set out to engineer the the most powerful cartridge that could practically be chambered in a compact pistol of the straight blowback design. What they came up with is the 9x18 or 9 mm Makarov, which is a little more powerful than the .380 but still quite a bit short of the 9x19 mm or 9 mm NATO cartridge. The Czechs didn't like the Makarov design so they built their own pistol around the Makarov cartridge. The CZ82/83 is IMO a marvel of ergonomics and really pleasant to shoot. It's a bit large compared to other compact pistols (which is partly why it's so easy to shoot) but you have to bear in mind that it was designed as the primary handgun of the military and thus was typically carried in a belt holster. A .380 or 9 mm Makarov pistol is a lot better than a sharp stick, but I generally favor something with more power for self defense.

Aside -- There is also a 9x23 mm or 9 mm Largo of Spanish design and a 9x21mm cartridge of Israeli design which is actually virtually identical in dimensions and performance to the 9x19 but can be sold in countries like Mexico where "military calibers" are prohibited. There's also the .38 Super (9x23mmSR), also popular in Mexico, which in +P loadings is comparable to the .357 Sig. It's found mostly in M1911 type pistols.

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I you can find one of the Grendel P-12s they are pretty good .380s, but they are DEFINITELY a "pocket pistol" and have a snort little barrel. Probably not what you're looking for...

They were the precursor to the Kelteks and Kahrs, being one of the first high-cap (12+1) polymer frame .380 autos. I had one for about 10 years, and it was a fun gun. Seemed to work with just about anything I put through it.

The only quirk of the Grendel, being a double-stack .380 is that you could actually feel the recoil getting snappier as you emptied the magazines. They don't weigh much empty, and a loaded mag is about 1/3 the weight of the empty gun. Once you get used to the ever-changing perceived recoil, though, they are, in my experience, a very reliable BUG. Perfect for deep-cover CC, but probably not well-suited to OC...

I saw one in a pawn shop the other day in pretty good shape (original box and paperwork and little finish wear at all) and almost bought it--more for nostalgia than because it fits my needs. I'm sort of "over" the whole mousegun pocket pistol thing now though, and my next handgun will either be a subcompact .45acp or a snubbie .357...

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BERSA THUNDER 380 PLUS

15+1. costs about $350 NIB but can be hard to find.

Weighs the same as a Glock 22, which has 15+1 rounds of .40S&W

Also, TAURUS 58HC model. It is like a downsized beretta 92. It has a three position
safety, so you can carry cocked&locked, or DA/SA. It also carries 19+1
It will feed anything reliably. Heck, It's even lighter than a glock 17.
It can be had for under $500.

BERSA also has aluminum two part feed ramp, means it needs polishing AND you CAN NOT reliably feed anything but ball ammo.

I love .380 and have a single stack BERSA.
It is a smaller form factor though, with its blowback, coil over barrel design.

It is just hard to justify a medium frame or larger pistol in a country where we have access to 9mm and .40S&W

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I have many friends on the Bersa Forums that would argue the feed reliability: once the gun has been broken in, most feed anything.

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Yes, my Bersa feeds fine on both FMJ and JHP.

It was my enjoyment of the Bersa which led to my original question since I would think there would be a market for a 15+1 .380 with a bit more barrel.

I, for a while, carried and shot a Bersa Thunder 380. Aside for the safety mechanism that it had (It was a PPKS knockoff) I enjoyed the little shooter. I twas pretty light weight, had decent capacity and shot accurate as hell. Kickback was a bit but not uncontrollable. I felt sure the .380 around (AKA: 9mm short or "9mm Kurtz", Google is your friend) would stop a perp as well as a .38 Special (Which aint no slouch either).

The biggest problem is, the UNAVAILABILITY of round, .380 CANNOT be found in my area, and has been that way for a YEAR now. I dont own the pistol any more, traded it in on another firearm.

GL,
Andrew

ElevenBravo:

.380 was scarce for a long time, but I can find it with ease now. when is the last time you went somewhere besides Wal-Mart for ammo?

What is worse though, 9mm Para is significantly cheaper than kurtz.

Another strike against a full sized .380

Like I said I love .380 but my next gun is a G19 Gen4.

Hmm, .380 is everywhere now it seems. I see it at Cabela's, Walmart and online all the time now.

Yes it is back on the shelves but the price is still alot higher than it was prior to '08, at least in my area.

ecocks said:

Hmm, .380 is everywhere now it seems. I see it at Cabela's, Walmart and online all the time now.

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Given the fact the .380 and the .357 magnum handguns are nearly identical in size, and the .357 is only slightly more weighty but with a far greater knockdown power, I'd recommend you go with the .357 magnum.

Personally, however, I prefer the 16+1 capacity of my CZ 85 B 9mm, along with the 147 grain XST Winchester Ranger rounds which keeps it well fed.

simmonsjoe said:

BERSA also has aluminum two part feed ramp, means it needs polishing AND you CAN NOT reliably feed anything but ball ammo.

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I call BS on this one .. .. ..

I have a Bersa 380 Thunder single stack; the feed ramp has NOT been polished and I shoot all kinds of ammo through it from Buffalo Bore JHP, Magtech FMJ, Cor-Bon JHP, and Speer JHP with no trouble whatsoever .. .. .. CAN YOU DIG IT ?

Bersa.380 said:

I call BS on this one .. .. ..

I have a Bersa 380 Thunder single stack; the feed ramp has NOT been polished and I shoot all kinds of ammo through it from Buffalo Bore JHP, Magtech FMJ, Cor-Bon JHP, and Speer JHP with no trouble whatsoever .. .. .. CAN YOU DIG IT ?

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My experience is different. I have shot mine in BUG matches, and in tactical setups. I don't think you know how reliable your gun is till your keeping score in front of other people. It's too easy to shrug it off and forget about it.

Your the one who didn't even know Bersa made a double stack, and now your calling BS. If you want to truly trust your gun you need to understand it fully.

BTW- Those Buffalo Bore JHP's fragment on impact, creating a very painful, nasty, but shallow wound. If your going to carry them for defense, you should alternate them with Buffalo Bore's flat nose FMJ. (does more damage than round). Or you can use one in the pipe and another ammo choice with penetration capable of CNS strikes in the mag. That way you can shoot one very painful but slightly less lethal round and then re-assess.

My experience is different. I have shot mine in BUG matches, and in tactical setups. I don't think you know how reliable your gun is till your keeping score in front of other people. It's too easy to shrug it off and forget about it.

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Maybe you got one that's not representative of most? Most of the Bersa Thunder owners I've talked with have found them very reliable and firing a wide variety of ammo after a break-in preiod of 100 to 200 rounds. Most feed FMJ, JHP, even cast lead bullets without issue. There are exceptions and if you spend some time on dedicated forums like BersaChat.com you do hear of occassional individual guns that will be a bit finicky. Still, most instances of FTF, FTE problems I've heard of can be traced to improper cleaning, over lubrication or use of non-OEM magazines in the Bersa.

FWIW, while on the topic of 380s, most of the folks on Bersachat use the Cor-Bon DPX or Winchester PDX1 rounds for self-defense. The choice is based on testing by members on whether the hollow points expand properly, penetration depth and feed reliability in their guns.

The main advantage of .380 ACP is that it's the most powerful round that the tiny little subcompacts can be chambered for. Anything bigger than a subcompact can be chambered in 9mm luger, which will give you the same capacity as .380 and a lot more power.