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Thread: My internal OC / CCW debate

  1. #1
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    Guys it is a huge writing and required 3 or 4 postings on MOcarry. That is more than enough band width on my blatherings, if you are interested you can read it there at http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/...d=1#post384728

    I am more than happy to entertain discussions on it on either board or if this would be spamming under the rules here to repost it here as well as mocarry is sort of no longer to exist, I am fairly sure that is a nonissue anyway.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    What a waste of good bandwidth. A long 3 page posting just to say that you are either afraid to open carry or a OC anti. And you have huge issues with anyone that is going to the trouble of trying to correct a unconstitutional state law regarding open carry unless they follow your guide lines. Just my take on your postings and I am not going to comment further.

    By the way do you have a word fetish or consider yourself as a great writer?



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    9026543 wrote:
    A long 3 page posting just to say that you are either afraid to open carry or a OC anti. And you have huge issues with anyone that is going to the trouble of trying to correct a unconstitutional state law regarding open carry unless they follow your guide lines.
    You might have wanted to actually read what was written instead of looking like a fool whom did not as none such nonsense was contained within.

    Here is a CLUE <===== print it out and put it in your pocket so you have one.

    Being critical of methods that have lead to the most wide sweeping gun control legislation in the history of the country and pointing out that methodology is doing so again is not anti, it is smart.

    Perhaps because I do have a wordy writing style you missed the point 100%. Some of the advocates involved on OC do not want anyone to help that is not going to use the methods proven to be detrimental to the cause.

    Your gonna have to excuse me for not feeling badly when folks cry about the NRA, GOA, SAF and CCW crowd not helping when the only help that is accepted is a method that cause the problem in the first place, is continuing to cause more problems.

    I have little doubt you have nothing left to say as you really said nothing the first time sir.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    ...not another
    MY

    is
    BIGGER
    THAN
    YOURS thread.....

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    Not unless you decide to turn it into that.

    My intent was nothing less than reasonable discussions of an opinion expressed.

    The responder was someone carrying issues of their own and opting to express them, everyone shall live through it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    I believe the ego is bigger than the rooster! Wordy writing style my ass. Rambling is more like it.

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    Edited: Still trying to turn it into something it never was eh?
    You really need to print that clue out.
    Lets see, I called it a blathering, I referred to it as a blathering very early into the writing, I referred to it as a blathering again at least one more time near the close of it.
    You try and twist it in to an attempt by myself to be a writer despite the simple fact it was clearly defined otherwise. You would only do so for one of a few reasons, a lack of intelligence, you thrive only on controversy and live vicariously through the internet forums, or your desires are as the thoughts expressed indicate you hunt for folks you can tell to kiss your ass. None of which are important to me beyond pointing it our so others may see it clearly as well.
    You lasted what, 3 and a half hours before you proved your desire over rode your honor this time?
    You have postings on this board whining about a lack of support, you are the perfect example:
    Anti-NRA http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=38090&forum_id=33&jump_t o=731402#p731402
    Anti-CCW http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=32845&forum_id=33&jump_t o=554514#p554514
    Whoops http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=31641&forum_id=33&jump_t o=532001#p532001
    Guess that grand conspiracy exist between someone’s ears instead of a true reality.
    And the grand poobaa of em all
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=29965&forum_id=57&jump_t o=502179#p502179
    Where you clearly indicate your desire to tell em to kiss your ass, where you say you would watch a man being beaten with a pipe by a criminal and just stroll on by as his political ideals and efforts are different than your own.
    Yep, you sure are an impressive posterboy for an advocacy group. Thank you for driving my point far better than I ever could as I most certainly am not a writer at all, but you sure are a great example of what I was trying to indicate is wrong with too many involved in the OC movement.
    Back already? I see you are a man of your word.

    Scoot along, no one willing to play with you here.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Ah, but you are such a great writer and philosopher why did I ever doubt you? Silly me.

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    LMTD- Here is what I think is our biggest separation in ideology involving freedoms and rights. It is my belief that. IF YOU DO NOTUSE IT FOR FEAR OF LOOSING IT. YOU HAVE LOST IT ALREADY AND DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

    I thank you for your respectful interpretation of my "kiss my ass" attitude. I know I can stand a little strong on the things I truly believe in. If I may be so bold as to believe I am the one you spoke of. The answer I am most wanting to hear is. Whatwas the goal of your post on missouricarry?

    You have to admit it languagespeaks a bit negative about OC and thehandful of people who practice it. Even wanting to dismantle the calling of the progress made in open carry as a "movement". Do you think there has been a time in recent history when OC was more practiced here in Missouri. You dislike that OC have different reasons for practicing OC. I can guaranty there are many different reasons why people choose to CCW.

    There are a few things I disagree with in your unflattering Open Carry Manifesto. Comparing the small social OC awareness groups we have in Missouri to the black pantherscarrying assault rifles and marching in a para military displayon the grounds of the state capital does seem far stretch.

    Doc

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    LMTD wrote:
    Guys it is a huge writing and required 3 or 4 postings on MOcarry. That is more than enough band width on my blatherings, if you are interested you can read it there at http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/...d=1#post384728

    I am more than happy to entertain discussions on it on either board or if this would be spamming under the rules here to repost it here as well as mocarry is sort of no longer to exist, I am fairly sure that is a nonissue anyway.
    LMTD,

    that was a long read...Just a couple of things for you. A.45 can be used to put rounds on target at60 yards (100 if you guard a general). Also, remember that California doesn't have a state rkba amendment in their constitution.Even after Mcdonald, those restrictionsfor carry down the street, will probably be allowed to stand.

    OC of a handgun will not.

    I would hate to see base some of your opinions on thepeople you have talked to. It doesnt' help when you talk to people that don't know what they are talking about...lol.



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    LMTD - I think you brought up some valid points, myself. Don't know why one of the posters here decided to attack you, your writing style, and your opinion, but I guess some people haven't graduated to the point of having adult conversations about sensitive issues.

    In reality, this shouldn't even be an issue. We have a Second Amendment protection in our National Constitution, and a Article 1, Section 23 protection in our State Constitution that are both blatantly being ignored/abused/usurped right in front of our eyes. With that said, the reality is that it IS an issue. I find it very unlikely that it will be resolved to our liking without a lot of hard work in Jefferson City and at the ballot box.

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    CC is popular with the sheeple; out of sight out of mind. OC is unpopular with the criminals; make me a victim? nevermind!

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    sohighlyunlikely wrote: LMTD- Here is what I think is our biggest separation in ideology involving freedoms and rights. It is my belief that.

    1. IF YOU DO NOTUSE IT FOR FEAR OF LOOSING IT. YOU HAVE LOST IT ALREADY AND DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

    I thank you for your respectful interpretation of my "kiss my ass" attitude. I know I can stand a little strong on the things I truly believe in. If I may be so bold as to believe I am the one you spoke of. The answer I am most wanting to hear is.

    2. Whatwas the goal of your post on missouricarry?


    3. You have to admit it languagespeaks a bit negative about OC and thehandful of people who practice it. Even wanting to dismantle the calling of the progress made in open carry as a "movement".

    4. Do you think there has been a time in recent history when OC was more practiced here in Missouri. You dislike that OC have different reasons for practicing OC. I can guaranty there are many different reasons why people choose to CCW.



    5. There are a few things I disagree with in your unflattering Open Carry Manifesto. Comparing the small social OC awareness groups we have in Missouri to the black pantherscarrying assault rifles and marching in a para military displayon the grounds of the state capital does seem far stretch.

    Doc
    Thanks for the response Doc,
    I edited your post for clarity only, if doing so makes something out of context please address it.
    1. IF YOU HAVE USED IT AND LOST IT BECAUSE OF HOW SOME USED IT< BEING CRITICAL OF THAT TYPE OF USAGE IS WISE.



    I am not so sure those ideologies are nearly as far apart as you do sir, I in fact like yours much better, but history says one of them has occurred, and current history in progress says it is happening again. I am also some what used to talking with you and assume there is no sarcasm involved in the kiss my ass part as I do respect and practice it myself in case it is not obvious enough.


    2. My goal was the exploration of the constantly propagated myth that the CCW crowd does not support OC when I know for a fact it is not true. I also wanted to explore why some of what was said was indeed true, much of the OC legislation has been less than enthusiastic though more than a few were looking for ways to see it through. I posted it on Mocarry because uf this and I intended on posting it on both sites, but it was too large and only a few would have interest in my thoughts and they would not need to register or anything to see it if they wanted to, just click the link. I also expected to have a bit more discussion over there about organizing a tangible effort to take a serious run at 2011 for OC. My goal is state wide law that reflects the intent of the constitution, from the open carry view point, anywhere you are legally able to be seems like real good language for a state law.


    3. Wow, I find it interesting you went there. Well lets take it line by line, Yes I most certainly have spoke in a critical and what could be considered negative about a handful of those whom are involved, there is no doubt that I agree with that statement. On the second sentence it has two parts to address. I will hit the last part first. While a lot of folks do refer to it as “the open carry movement” they also often add “if you want to call it that”, “a disorganize group of militant extremist” a “loosely connected group” etc. I am turning the sarcasm switch o here. Can you name the organization the people I have offended by dismantling it? Switched off, to my knowledge there is not in fact any organization in the state of Missouri that is indeed working on an effort for open carry of firearms. If there is, I’ll join instantly, but if your talking about opencarry.org it is most often and accurately described as a social networking webspace where people interested in open carry hang out and talk about it along with notifying each other of where they are going to be to meet up. I think there most certainly does need to be an organization with defined goals and members working together, but I am not sure there is one for me to have offended.


    Now to that part in the middle about progress. The only progress I have observed is the progress made in more restrictions. Ok, that’s not fair but its not a pot shot either. You made some progress with the St Charles police, but at the same time are you sure about that? More on that in a second. I can not seem to confirm the rumor I learned HERE that WG did in fact make a move to restrict open carry but that is a story propagated right on this web space. When a lawyer was asked for an opinion on your video of the interaction with St Charles police, his response was surprising “They will likely move to make it illegal” When I asked why came the surprise “to prevent a lawsuit against the city for violating civil rights. If the activity is made illegal, the officers did nothing wrong so they likely will move in that direction since it is cheaper than training the officers for man with a gun calls and it prevents a lawsuit if the officers ego surpasses the law” perhaps you or others do not find that as surprising as I did, but it is a point to be considered. So while I understand you may have different views, I know of no progress at all in the state of Missouri with regard to OC, I have seen only significant posturing by the anti crowd to attack our rights again because of it, I am however wide open to learn of any positive progress anyone has substantiated.

    4. Yes, I most certainly do think that OC was practiced more in Missouri than it is now. I do NOT dislike that OC has different reasons and I have never said that and I am not sure how I ever implied it. There are several reasons, the one with a lot of weight is cost associated with CCW. Another would be in ability to obtain CCW, I agree that the deterrent factor increases some, but I do not think anyone whom opt to put a weapon on makes a good target so some of that might be negated by simply neither CCW or OC making a god target. I have in fact said I do not think some of the reasons some of the people open carry are GOOD reasons. I stand by that, some of the reasons “they” list are less than stellar, some take great pleasure in the act of telling a cop to kiss their ass, others are looking for a law suit, it is a small percentage, but more than a few have said as much right here on these boards.


    5. Ouch, number five kind of sucks Doc! Since the Anti’s have yet to be able to explain to me what an assault rifle is and the term did not even exist when the panthers did the march you speak of, you got a thing against black rifles? Did those boys have barrel shrouds too? Ok, I will back off, but you gotta own that one, you deserved me extremely exaggerating what you said for a point here. Um back on track, manifesto? It is nothing more than what I have called it, a blathering, my thoughts pecked into note pad as they came to me as I looked at the situation to determine a direction, Yes, it changed gears several times it was written over several days and it is not yet complete. Did you miss the guy with the AK 47 pistol openly strapped In the national park in Tn that almost cost folks the national park progress. Did you also miss the guy with the AR outside the presidents speaking engagement? Did you miss the hoopla on these board when a guy showed up to Pondarosa with the AR and before it was all said and done, the police threw them ALL out?
    Doc, I think you are so damn focused on deciding that I am moderate to anti-OC and want you to stop OC’ing a firearm and having a cup of coffee that your BLINDED by it. I think NOTHING of the sort, I think you do it RIGHT. While you do not agree with everything I have said (which is as it should be, I defined them as opinions) you haven’t tried to twist it up, turn it into something its not and engages in very reasonable discussion. Compare it to the previous poster 9xxxxx. His whole goal in life is to stir the pot, twist words and talk negative CONSTANTLY, the pattern is clear for him. I think it might be the same person as was nicknamed onegoal on mocarry, I could be wrong I do not know either of them, but the posting patterns are the same, always something negative to say about anyone and if they can’t find a good target, they spin words just for the opportunity to act like a *******. Very few folks are ever going to align themselves with a person like that since everything they do is to paint a negative light, they have one over them.
    OC needs organization, it needs lots of people working to the common goal, it needs a lot of sound effort and it needs communication. There is a good foundation for it, attention is high, it has possibilities of becoming a reality. The only thing you have ever done I disagree with and asked you to reconsider was the wording on the shirt. The context in which you used the word hide implied cowardice to anyone whom opted not to openly show their gun. Not the same but very similar to the way 9x said such things about myself hoping for a rise. My position on that remains unchanged, I know some within the CCW crowd whom find it offensive and “typical” OC behavior however unwarranted it may be, perception is reality.

    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Shawn wrote:
    LMTD wrote:
    Guys it is a huge writing and required 3 or 4 postings on MOcarry. That is more than enough band width on my blatherings, if you are interested you can read it there at http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/...d=1#post384728

    I am more than happy to entertain discussions on it on either board or if this would be spamming under the rules here to repost it here as well as mocarry is sort of no longer to exist, I am fairly sure that is a nonissue anyway.
    LMTD,

    that was a long read...Just a couple of things for you. A.45 can be used to put rounds on target at60 yards (100 if you guard a general). Also, remember that California doesn't have a state rkba amendment in their constitution.Even after Mcdonald, those restrictionsfor carry down the street, will probably be allowed to stand.

    OC of a handgun will not.

    I would hate to see base some of your opinions on thepeople you have talked to. It doesnt' help when you talk to people that don't know what they are talking about...lol.

    Hey Shawn,

    The comments about the 45 were to curb the great debate over 100 yards and I really just did not want to pull the Hornady manual out to debate velocities, drop and the never ending knock down power that too often come up when they are not a part of the point being made

    I am aware there are more than a few whom are working hard and I know there are even more willing to come, I also know they have little interest in having to ignore insults and falsities at every turn, its just not worth it to them.

    I have often wondered what it must be like to be a CCW instructor who just spent 10 hours on a day off, calling and writing legislators, pulling coin out of your own pocket to mail the letters, sending them off and sitting down at the puter to relax and read whats going on today only to find your a coward because you hide your gun, your a greedy person because you conduct the firearms safety class for money and your perceived as actually trying to stop OC to protect your business.

    I guess it is a good thing some of them do not share that kiss my ass attitude because that is about exactly what I would say.

    A few rambling negative posters do not have the capacity to impact me, I have been on forums since the days of listserv and newsgroups. My passion and ability to ignore sniveling will drive me on in the quest for OC for the entire state of Missouri, it will drive me for felons rights, and it will drive me until the meaning of 2a is realized.

    When we are done here, perhaps I will buy a small plot in the peoples republic so I have a voice there and work on that one, I don't know, but until every single person in this country can make their own choice, I will try and get them that opportunity.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    I am but a simple man with a simple desire. To be a free American who has the rights the founding fathers of this country gave us all. Imay notthe word smith you are soI will try and keep it simple. On matters so serious as this I do not speak in sarcasm. I understand why my way of thinking can be considered "kiss my ass" when I amcan be unwavering in my desires to express my 2A rights in the manner I see fit. I shall partially address the five comments you have extrapolated from our conversation.

    1 There will be fools in any crowd. I can not live in fear of what misgivings their actions may or may not. All I can control is myself. If I am leading am doing so by example. What anyone does from that point is of their own doing.

    2 Thank you and good luck with your endeavor

    3 By true definition on a national level we have an OC social movement: A singular or similar goal informally recognized by a large group of people. We lack numbers to conceder Missouri's OC as a movement by it's truest definition.

    St Charles could have changed their laws with the swing of a gavel and yet it has not happened. If it should do so sometime in the near future feel free to taught the I told you so. But in till then I will have to consider your fears of such as paranoia.

    4 you can't really believe that the people of ill intention represent the movement. We are in a time of high concern for personal rights and political expression.

    5 Assault riffle is a slang term. I will guess that your debunking of the word is for political positioning. I'm sure using the term is a political faux pas. As I have said before. I do not try to mix words and politics is not my game of choice. If you would like a commonly referreddefinition it is as such.

    An assault rifle is loosely defined as a selective fire rifle designed for combat that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. Assault rifles are the standard infantry weapons in most modern armies. Examples of assault rifles include the M16 rifle, AK family, G36, FN FNC, and the Steyr AUG.

    A manifesto is a public declaration of principles and intentions, often political in nature. I can think of no better word to describe your original posting on MOcarry

    If it is my belief of you being a moderate you wish to bend, then you have I think you do care for OC rights but fear they will be misused and if that is done before state wide OC is enacted(Which I have my doubts of that reality) than harm will possibly alter the politics of getting that done.

    The shirt speaks of a motto of not fearing to live in the light of ones social surroundings, to be proud in your beliefs whether it be your 2A rights or any other thing that nay be feared to be scrutinized. Many people only CC because they feel it is socially unacceptable to OC or are not even aware of their option to OC. Believe me, as a person who actively OC's I have heard on to many occasions for me to remember. "I didn't know that was legal"

    Doc





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    LMTD wrote:
    Hey Shawn,

    The comments about the 45 were to curb the great debate over 100 yards and I really just did not want to pull the Hornady manual out to debate velocities, drop and the never ending knock down power that too often come up when they are not a part of the point being made

    I am aware there are more than a few whom are working hard and I know there are even more willing to come, I also know they have little interest in having to ignore insults and falsities at every turn, its just not worth it to them.

    I have often wondered what it must be like to be a CCW instructor who just spent 10 hours on a day off, calling and writing legislators, pulling coin out of your own pocket to mail the letters, sending them off and sitting down at the puter to relax and read whats going on today only to find your a coward because you hide your gun, your a greedy person because you conduct the firearms safety class for money and your perceived as actually trying to stop OC to protect your business.

    I guess it is a good thing some of them do not share that kiss my ass attitude because that is about exactly what I would say.

    A few rambling negative posters do not have the capacity to impact me, I have been on forums since the days of listserv and newsgroups. My passion and ability to ignore sniveling will drive me on in the quest for OC for the entire state of Missouri, it will drive me for felons rights, and it will drive me until the meaning of 2a is realized.

    When we are done here, perhaps I will buy a small plot in the peoples republic so I have a voice there and work on that one, I don't know, but until every single person in this country can make their own choice, I will try and get them that opportunity.
    LTMD,

    To be sure there are a lot of people in this state that want to see better gun laws. But don't be fooled for a second to think that some of those in the ccw community have not worked against OC legislation. This next year will be easier to get something passed, I believe, only because we will have an opinion on the 2nd being applied to the state.

    Now, this years legislation, it had a lot in it. Not enough, but more than the previous years. Following the previous versions, could this have been assigned to a committee...who knows? I think we might see some changes to 571.030 next year, besides 21.750.

    Now, as far as people following the law and going to a coffee shop (or anywhere else they want to go)...there is nothing wrong or abnormal about that. It wouldbe nice to have that many people show up to testify next year on getting these laws passed.

    Could somebody pull a stunt like Kiwik did in Tennessee and god for bid carry a AK47 pistol around with him. Yep, legal and could happen. Matter of fact, it could be a rifle slung over the shoulder. Of course, this site is aimed at the carrying of holstered pistols.

    I don't see a debate about the effectivenessof a .45 at 100 yards, perhaps the shooter, but not the round. Hornadyand another site.45acp

    I don't know who said to you that people with ccw's are cowards because they hide their gun. I don't believe that we need to ask and pay for the ability to carry concealed. It is a money machine for those in the business. Constitutional carry should have always been the push. That is why our mo constitutional amendmentwas changed in the first place.


    Last couple of item's. Can we all agree that no more than 3-5 sentences per paragraph, before you hit the enter key? Also, Rights are a grant from God, not a gift from another man.

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    Shawn wrote:
    LMTD wrote: Last couple of item's. Can we all agree that no more than 3-5 sentences per paragraph, before you hit the enter key? Also, Rights are a grant from God, not a gift from another man.
    LOL,

    We can not agree on that one sir, I don't make agreements I am not likely to keep!

    When I start slapping my thoughts down the brain works much faster than the fingers and I get behind!
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Shawn wrote:

    I don't know who said to you that people with ccw's are cowards because they hide their gun. I don't believe that we need to ask and pay for the ability to carry concealed. It is a money machine for those in the business. Constitutional carry should have always been the push. That is why our mo constitutional amendmentwas changed in the first place.
    That is in reference to the shirt I have for sale at Zazzle

    http://www.zazzle.com/i_do_not_basic...47199625560247

    Doc

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