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Thread: When to draw

  1. #1
    Regular Member Teamtnt2004's Avatar
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    What are the legal conditions for drawing your weapon on someone? If I'm in a gas station, and someone comes in to rob it by knife, or gun, do I have the legal right to draw, and shoot? I heard before than in WI you can only defend yourself within the means that you are being attacked. I.E. if someone is attacking you with a knife, you can defend your self with a knife, not with a gun. Also, can you shoot just because you feel your life is in danger? Or must something else happen first? Thanks!

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    939.48
    939.48Self-defense and defense of others.
    (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

    939.48(4)
    (4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self-defense and that the person's intervention is necessary for the protection of the 3rd person.

    (5) A person is privileged to use force against another if the person reasonably believes that to use such force is necessary to prevent such person from committing suicide, but this privilege does not extend to the intentional use of force intended or likely to cause death.


  3. #3
    McX
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    the return of draw or no draw!

  4. #4
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Teamtnt2004 wrote:
    I heard before than in WI you can only defend yourself within the means that you are being attacked. I.E. if someone is attacking you with a knife, you can defend your self with a knife, not with a gun. Also, can you shoot just because you feel your life is in danger? Or must something else happen first? Thanks!
    You heard wrong. You can't just shoot because you feel you life is in danger, you have to reasonably believe that you, or another person is in IMMINENT danger of death or great bodily harm. "Imminent" means "about to happen."

    I don't know where the "you can't use a gun against a knife" myth keeps coming from. You can use a tank against knife (although you'd probably be using it to help a third party since it would hard to say you reasonably feared great bodily hard from a person with a knife while you're inside a tank.)

    A person armed with a knife is capable of causing death or great bodily harm. You can't attack them simply because they are capable, but again, only if you reasonably belief the death or harm is imminent.

    A person armed with a baseball bat may also be capable of causing death or great bodily harm.

    Some people with no weapons at all are capable of causing death or great bodily harm, particularly if they are much larger or if there is more than one of them. (Disparity of force.)

    If the "no gun can be used against a knife" myth was true, it would result in ridiculous consequences, e.g., "Sorry ma'am, I'd like to help you against this murderous rapist who's holding a knife to your throat, but I left my knife at home and all I've got is this here 12 gauge shotgun." or "Yes, I've lost permanent use of my arm because I wasn't allowed to draw my gun on the knife slasher."

    As far as your first question-- what are the legal conditions for drawing your weapon on someone-- remember drawing and pointing are two completely different actions. Drawing simply means removing the firearm from the holster. It may be prudent to draw at the first sign of danger. As the saying goes "the fastest draw is the gun already in the hand." I've drawn my gun numerous times in response to different situations without having to actually point it at anyone. For example to investigate a suspicious noise at night.

    If I drew my gun without pointing it at someone, but a potential threat is actually there, I'd try to avoid letting them see I have a drawn gun, keeping the gun out of their view. If there's not question that they're a definite threat, for example you've got rioters outside your store, then you may want to let them see you've got a gun in your hand without pointing at them. That may be all it takes to make them go away. And before someone jumps all over me by pointing out you can't use deadly force to protect property, don't forget that not all riots are done with the intention of looting property--- the rioters were not after Reginald Denny's truck, they were after Reginald Denny.

    If you meant to say when can you legally POINT your gun at someone, I'd say under the same circumstances when you might be justified to actually shoot them.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Also, If you are in a gas station, standing at the checkout and the individual weilding the knife is in the back by the coolers where no one else is, you would be wise to with hold drawing your firearm until the individual is moving in your's or the cashier's
    direction with the knife in hand.

    "He was moving towards me waving the knife at me in a violent manner while making verbal threats of cutting my throat." <-----Example 1

    "He ran up to the counter and was slashing at the cashier with the knife, verbally threatening to kill her/him while attempting to reach the cash register."
    <--Example 2

    If no threat is made either physically or verbally and you draw your firearm, then who is the perpetrator?

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    Regular Member Teamtnt2004's Avatar
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    Thank you to everyone who has answered my questions. I have done a lot of research on the topic of OC. I had just a few "grey" areas that I needed clarification of before I was completely comfortable to do my first OC. I now feel completely comfortable and confident in all the laws and regulations. I plan to have my first OC tomorrow. Thanks a bunch.


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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard.

    Let us know how your first time carrying went. Most likely uneventful, but fun. Carry on.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Teamtnt2004's Avatar
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    I just did there's a new post from me about it

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    Regular Member Teamtnt2004's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    Teamtnt2004 wrote:
    I heard before than in WI you can only defend yourself within the means that you are being attacked. I.E. if someone is attacking you with a knife, you can defend your self with a knife, not with a gun. Also, can you shoot just because you feel your life is in danger? Or must something else happen first? Thanks!
    You heard wrong. You can't just shoot because you feel you life is in danger, you have to reasonably believe that you, or another person is in IMMINENT danger of death or great bodily harm. "Imminent" means "about to happen."

    I don't know where the "you can't use a gun against a knife" myth keeps coming from. You can use a tank against knife (although you'd probably be using it to help a third party since it would hard to say you reasonably feared great bodily hard from a person with a knife while you're inside a tank.)

    A person armed with a knife is capable of causing death or great bodily harm. You can't attack them simply because they are capable, but again, only if you reasonably belief the death or harm is imminent.

    A person armed with a baseball bat may also be capable of causing death or great bodily harm.

    Some people with no weapons at all are capable of causing death or great bodily harm, particularly if they are much larger or if there is more than one of them. (Disparity of force.)

    If the "no gun can be used against a knife" myth was true, it would result in ridiculous consequences, e.g., "Sorry ma'am, I'd like to help you against this murderous rapist who's holding a knife to your throat, but I left my knife at home and all I've got is this here 12 gauge shotgun." or "Yes, I've lost permanent use of my arm because I wasn't allowed to draw my gun on the knife slasher."

    As far as your first question-- what are the legal conditions for drawing your weapon on someone-- remember drawing and pointing are two completely different actions. Drawing simply means removing the firearm from the holster. It may be prudent to draw at the first sign of danger. As the saying goes "the fastest draw is the gun already in the hand." I've drawn my gun numerous times in response to different situations without having to actually point it at anyone. For example to investigate a suspicious noise at night.

    If I drew my gun without pointing it at someone, but a potential threat is actually there, I'd try to avoid letting them see I have a drawn gun, keeping the gun out of their view. If there's not question that they're a definite threat, for example you've got rioters outside your store, then you may want to let them see you've got a gun in your hand without pointing at them. That may be all it takes to make them go away. And before someone jumps all over me by pointing out you can't use deadly force to protect property, don't forget that not all riots are done with the intention of looting property--- the rioters were not after Reginald Denny's truck, they were after Reginald Denny.

    If you meant to say when can you legally POINT your gun at someone, I'd say under the same circumstances when you might be justified to actually shoot them.
    My only caution or issue with your statement is that I believe a gun should not leave it's holster unless there is the intent to use it. The same goes for pointing that weapon, don't point it at anything you don'tintend on shooting, after all that weapon could discharge while pointed, the chance is very small, but still there nonetheless. The minute that weapon leaves it's holster you have just raised the level of intensityofthe incident, and really it's a gamble. I don't believe in any way that people should pull out a gun and point it unless they fully intend on using it. That robber or attacker may just decide to attempt to call your bluff and fully attack you with the intent of disarming you and killing you, or they may flee. You never know. So the act of unholstering, pointing, and shooting should ,in theory, all be the same as far as intent goes. Not trying to argue with you, just kinda weighing in with my thoughts. This kind of ties in with my slight apprehensionfor open cary. I would prefer to conceal carry simply so that everyone doesn't know I am carrying. You never know when you may be targeted BECAUSE you are carrying, whether it be to disarm you, take you out first, or simply a political motivation. This is why I don't drive around with firearm company stickers on my vehicles, or wear shirts and hatswith firearm company logos. I would prefer the element of surprise.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    You heard wrong. You can't just shoot because you feel you life is in danger, you have to reasonably believe that you, or another person is in IMMINENT danger of death or great bodily harm. "Imminent" means "about to happen."
    If I draw and the perp does not stop his advance, then IMMINENT it is. I don't care if he is bare handed. There have been several cases in my area over the last 20 years where a person died after being punched once. The hand can be a deadly weapon.

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    BROKENSPROKET wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    You heard wrong. You can't just shoot because you feel you life is in danger, you have to reasonably believe that you, or another person is in IMMINENT danger of death or great bodily harm. "Imminent" means "about to happen."
    If I draw and the perp does not stop his advance, then IMMINENT it is. I don't care if he is bare handed. There have been several cases in my area over the last 20 years where a person died after being punched once. The hand can be a deadly weapon.
    Indeed it can be. I know of two cases in Madison in the past year or so in which someone was killed by one blow apparently.

    But you have to keep the concept of "disparity of force" in mind. If a person half your size takes a swing at you and you shoot them, I don't think you'll come out of it very well in court.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  13. #13
    McX
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    still, shotgun you disseminate valuable information that those who read should consider!

  14. #14
    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    WHEN TO DRAW, and BEING PREPAIRED TO DRAW



    While I worked as a correctional officer at the prison in oxford, WisconsinI belonged to the Bureau's armed escort team. We trained often, and not only on the range qualifying, with our firearms, but with profiling people and being aware of our surroundings.



    You have a firearm at your side, and along with carrying it, you have a responsibility to be aware of what’s going on around you, if you’re not fully aware at all times of your surroundings, you could some day walk into a potentially dangerous situation totally surprised and that could get you or someone else killed. When you carry a firearm, you no longer have the option to just casually walk around blindly and carelessly.



    The first thing the bad guy is going to assume, when you walk in on, for example, a robbery in progress, is that you’re a LEO. We have all at some point while OCing, been asked if we are LEO, and it will be no different with the bad guy, surprising the bad guy is not good while OCing, so be prepared by training yourself to be aware of your surroundings at all times.



    Training yourself to observe what is going on around you is easy, most of you I’m sure are already doing it, and extensive training is not a requirement, just plain old common sense. If your carrying a firearm you’re mind is already on alert, and your already running scenario’s through your mind, and you are already more aware of your surroundings then someone who is not carrying a firearm.



    I’m not an instructor or an expert by no means, but I’d like to share a small amount of what I have learned as an armed escort officer with the Bureau of Prisons.



    I remember one situation while escorting an inmate to the UW hospital in Madison. We were walking the inmate to the hospital from the parking lot. Whenever we escort an inmate out in the open, most people when they see us escorting a inmate, keep a wide distance from us, but, on this day, we had a guy walking right at us.



    We are always watching for a possible escape attempt, and this was as close as I want to come to that feeling of “oh shit”, what’s on this guys agenda. This guy walked straight at us at a rather fast pace, and as he did, I put my hand on my firearm and unsnapped it.



    I yelled to him that we are escorting an inmate and to stay clear from us. He didn’t listen, he kept coming, and as he did, my grip was getting tighter on my firearm. I yelled again, for him to stay clear, that we are escorting an inmate, but, again he wouldn’t listen and kept coming.



    To this day I remember what he was wearing, brown dress pants and a light brown t shirt, black socks and brown dress shoes and clean cut. He didn’t appear to be the type of person, who would attempt to break an inmate from custody. He still kept on walking right to us, and by now he was only steps away, as he approached, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up, I was ready for anything.



    I ran all the options through my head in about a half a second, should I draw my firearm but not point it at him, should I draw and point it at him to make him step aside, my mind took in all the information from his movements his demeanor, what he was wearing, and with what I observed, he didn’t appear to pose any kind of threat, his hands were empty and down by his side as he walked, he didn’t reach for any weapon as he approached, he was just walking.



    He approached us walked within inches, and walked right past us, turns out, he was just one stupid civilian, testing us to get us to react, and to find out how we would react if he walked passed us up close. After getting past us he just kept walking and laughed. I’ll bet to this day he has no idea how close he came to looking down the barrel of my firearm.



    Staying calm in any situation will allow you to stay in control, and allow you to make an informative decision based on facts not emotion to determine what action you should take when faced with a potentially dangerous situation. Being aware of your surroundings can keep you from walking into a dangerous situation unexpectedly.



    A good example to use, pulling into a gas station, they get robed quite frequently. While driving into the parking lot of a gas station, look into the window of the gas station where the store clerk is at the cash register, are the store clerks behind the counter at the cash register? is there any type of commotion going on?



    After you park, and while you’re pulling your firearm out to load it, look around, look at the type of people walking in and out of the store, what are they wearing, are they dressed for the season? Are they wearing cloths that match the climate, dress cloths, shorts, or do they have on sweaters and coats in the middle of the summer.



    Notice everyone’s demeanor, are they relaxed, casually walking around, any of them look nervous, are there any people hanging out in front of the store, if so, what are they doing, what are they wearing, are they nervous and looking right and left, as though looking out for the police, is there a robbery in the planning or in progress? If you think a robbery is in progress, what are you going to do? Wait outside, and call 911, what if you’re unsure, do you go inside to find out? And if you do and walk into the middle of a robbery, what do you do? Are you prepared for this possible situation?



    After checking out the outside of the store when you walk into the store, look around and notice where everyone is, what they are doing, what they are wearing, look at the clerk’s behind the counter, what are they doing, are they even behind the counter, if not where are they.



    After you train yourself to constantly be aware and take in all the information of your surroundings, in a casual non-conspicuous way, and process it within seconds, to determine the potential threat or lack of, in no time at all, you will be able to effortlessly observe any situation you find yourself in, and in doing so, you will have prevented yourself from walking into potentially dangerous situations, unexpectedly.



    Sometimes, I just like to find a place where I can sit and observe people going about there business, you can learn a lot about your surroundings and people’s behavior this way, and when something is not right, you’ll realize it immediately, your instincts will kick in and you’ll focus on what’s not right and react instinctively keeping you and others safe.

    Don

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Good post Don, thanks.

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    So when they guy kept walking and passed within inches of you, you still did nothing?

    I guess my question is, what if he would have passed within inches of you and then made a grab for your firearm? Then what?

    The point I am trying to make here is this, the more people are allowed to continue on with their behavior the more they will do it.

    I would say that you would have been within your duties to have this guy prone out face down on the ground and waiting for local LEO to take over from there.

    When escorting a prisoner you have that authority.

    Either way I am glad it worked out for you.



  17. #17
    Regular Member Teamtnt2004's Avatar
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    You made a lot of really good points in there. My original question was more toward the legal side but your post makes a lot of sense. Good for any new comers to read!

    Carry on

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    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    So when they guy kept walking and passed within inches of you, you still did nothing?

    I guess my question is, what if he would have passed within inches of you and then made a grab for your firearm? Then what?

    The point I am trying to make here is this, the more people are allowed to continue on with their behavior the more they will do it.

    I would say that you would have been within your duties to have this guy prone out face down on the ground and waiting for local LEO to take over from there.

    When escorting a prisoner you have that authority.

    Either way I am glad it worked out for you.


    As he walked past, I had my hand on my firearm and it was unsnapped, he could not have taken it from me, it would have been the last thing he did. I was ready in case he decided to actually physically do something, and my partner was also ready, but he did not.

    We can only use the amount of force necessary to prevent an escape, had I reacted as you thought I should, without provocation, and took him to the ground, and called local LEO what could he be charged with? He didn’t commit a crime; he didn’t attack us, or in anyway posed a threat, he had no visible weapon on him, all he did was walk past us.

    As with every situation, each individual will respond differently given the same set of circumstances, I just choose not to take him down, and call LEO, though I could have, and been well in my rights to do so. This judgment call could have backfired thought, if he had attacked us while up close with a knife, or handgun, there would have been casualties on both sides.

    So, in this case, I was lucky, I made the right call, given the outcome.



  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    cowboyridn wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    So when they guy kept walking and passed within inches of you, you still did nothing?

    I guess my question is, what if he would have passed within inches of you and then made a grab for your firearm? Then what?

    The point I am trying to make here is this, the more people are allowed to continue on with their behavior the more they will do it.

    I would say that you would have been within your duties to have this guy prone out face down on the ground and waiting for local LEO to take over from there.

    When escorting a prisoner you have that authority.

    Either way I am glad it worked out for you.


    As he walked past, I had my hand on my firearm and it was unsnapped, he could not have taken it from me, it would have been the last thing he did. I was ready in case he decided to actually physically do something, and my partner was also ready, but he did not.

    We can only use the amount of force necessary to prevent an escape, had I reacted as you thought I should, without provocation, and took him to the ground, and called local LEO what could he be charged with? He didn’t commit a crime; he didn’t attack us, or in anyway posed a threat, he had no visible weapon on him, all he did was walk past us.

    As with every situation, each individual will respond differently given the same set of circumstances, I just choose not to take him down, and call LEO, though I could have, and been well in my rights to do so. This judgment call could have backfired thought, if he had attacked us while up close with a knife, or handgun, there would have been casualties on both sides.

    So, in this case, I was lucky, I made the right call, given the outcome.

    No visible weapon eh? How many criminals do have visible weapons until it is too late?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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