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Thread: Time Herald (MI) - Marysville police admit they need re-training on open carry rights

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    Audi recording ofpolice misconduct: http://www.thetimesherald.com/assets...P159373610.MP3

    http://www.thetimesherald.com/articl...iolated-rights

    SNIP

    To Rob Harris, his Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm handgun might as well be a pair of Nikes.

    The 36-year-old Eastpointe resident said strapping a holster and handgun to his waist is simply a part of his routine.

    "I open-carry everywhere I go," he said. "It is like putting on a pair of shoes to me. We have the right to protect ourselves. ... I feel it is a deterrent to crime."

    But Harris' habit of carrying a firearm led to a confrontation last week with Marysville police officers, who stopped him and his friend, Scott Webb, as they walked near a city park during Marysville Days. Webb carries a Smith and Wesson M&P .40-caliber handgun.


    Harris and Webb, 31 and a former Marysville resident, said they were mistreated by Assistant Chief Ron Buckmaster and are demanding disciplinary action and a written apology.
    A recording of the confrontation between Buckmaster and the two men reveals a heated conversation in which the officer forced the two men to leave the park for openly carrying holstered firearms.

    Joy Yearout, spokeswoman for the Michigan attorney general's office, said anyone who is not a felon can openly carry a holstered handgun. If it is concealed, the person must have a concealed-weapons permit -- something both Harris and Webb have.

    . . .

    Harris and Webb, 31, of Roseville, said they were in the area to visit a local shooting range. Harris said they got some dinner afterward, and then Webb wanted to show him the city park.

    They went to the park, saw a carnival was in progres for Marysville Days and walked around the property.

    As they were walking away from the park -- along River Street, which was closed to traffic for the event -- they walked behind two uniformed police officers and a person in civilian clothing who turned out to be Buckmaster.

    Harris said Buckmaster turned to them, noticed they were carrying guns and told them they had to leave.

    . . .

    Maryville Chief Tim Buelow said the situation started out as a question of whether the park was private or public, because a carnival was under way.

    But an audio recording -- made by the two men during the confrontation -- does not indicate any argument on that subject. It captured only Buckmaster's contention that the location was city property.

    Buelow said he confirmed the next day the land was still considered public, meaning that Webb and Harris were allowed to carry their weapons.


    Buelow said he received a copy of the recording and he has "dealt with that issue."
    He wouldn't comment on whether Buckmaster acted appropriately or whether he has been disciplined.

    "I'm not going to second-guess my officers on the street," he said. "Audio and video can sometimes not tell the whole story."

    Buelow said no complaints were made about Harris and Webb before the confrontation.

    Buelow said he sent a memo to the department detailing how open-carry issues should be handled, but would not provide a copy of the instructions or say what they were.

    He also said officers will be trained further on the open-carry law during upcoming training regarding firearms.

    "The average public doesn't realize -- and many officers don't realize -- that open-carry is legal in Michigan," he said. "It is a training issue, and we are working on that."

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Well this is positive :celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Would be nice if we could see that memo.. seems some of the said memos that have gone out as of late are a load of crap.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Gotta love this part "Audio and video can sometimes not tell the whole story."
    How does it not tell the entire story? lol

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    It rarely tells the whole story. However, it always tells more (and more precisely) than the official police reports do.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    It rarely tells the whole story.Â* However, it always tells more (and more precisely) than the official police reports do.
    Hit the nail on the head, good sir.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    Would be nice if we could see that memo.. seems some of the said memos that have gone out as of late are a load of crap.
    The reporter filed a FOIA for the internal memo. When/if he gets it, he will let me know.

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    malignity wrote:
    Would be nice if we could see that memo.. seems some of the said memos that have gone out as of late are a load of crap.
    kinda like the "memo" and "training" after my illegal search and seizure in the marysville meijer a year ago. that chief is FULL of lip-service and politics.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Some of the comments on the article are truly scary.

    -Rob

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    "Marysville Chief Tim Buelow said the situation started out as a question of whether the park was private or public, because a carnival was under way.

    But an audio recording -- made by the two men during the confrontation -- does not indicate any argument on that subject. It captured only Buckmaster's contention that the location was city property."

    I love that the reporter essentially calls the Cheif a liar. Absolutely great reporting.

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    +1 the good guys. . . US OCers!!! take it away dancing monkey

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    that cop is just a d**kless wonder.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    "Ignorance of the law is no defense."
    Just an observation after almost 62 years of life paying attention to how people behave.........

    For entirely too many people, LE and citizen alike, it doesn't matter what is legal... all that matters is their personal opinion regardless of how ignorant of the facts (or law) that opinion may be.

    And woe be to the person who presents facts to counter personal opinion.... because it is an insult of the highest order to prove a cherished illusion of self importance to be false.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Is themp3 down for anyone else?

    If so I wonder why.

    I've already heard it just wondering why it's down....

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    dougwg wrote:
    Is themp3 down for anyone else?

    If so I wonder why.

    I've already heard it just wondering why it's down....
    Worked for me about 10 min ago...
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    works for me right now. maybe their server is slammed with all the people listening to it
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    or it's my laptop loaded with Vista

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    Very nice article.

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    Kudos to Harris and Webb for standing their ground and protecting their rights.

    It's time all of us step out of the closet and be proud to carry. The more the public gets used to seeing us ordinary law-abiding citizens carrying our guns the more they will see it as normal and not be afraid.

    My husband and I plan on attending the picnic in the Marysville park June 27th!!

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    among all the hate and ignorance, i found this comment on the article:
    "I'm ashamed that the MPD acted so unprofessional towards these two law-abiding citizens. I live in this town to know that the department is lacking in professionalism and understanding the law really upsets me.

    I'm wondering if I took a walk thru town wearing my holstered gun - would I get hassled the same as these two men??

    What these men have done is an awakening for us to come out of the closet with our guns and show that we do have the right to carry. For those of you who are afraid when you see a citizen carrying a gun - get yourselves one and get EDUCATED."

    it's nice to see the positive influence that good press can have
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    I just posted that comment in the TH.

    Anyone planning on attending the open-carry picnic on June 27th at the Marysville park??

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    38Special wrote:
    I just posted that comment in the TH.

    Anyone planning on attending the open-carry picnic on June 27th at the Marysville park??
    picnic discussion here:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/45558.html
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Oh yeah! My husband and I will definately be there. Can't wait!

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    dougwg wrote:
    or it's my laptop loaded with Vista

    You may just have to wait a moment. I have Vista and, though it took a few seconds to load (about 30) it then played fine.



    It's truly disappointing that, not only are we forced to deal with this level of incompetence daily, but then those whom we are supposed to turn to for help use excuses like "I'm not going to second guess my officers in the field". Why not? It's not like they're working a L.A. or Detroit beat. If your foot soldiers are wading through blood every day then yes, you afford them a higher level of decision making and call them out less for mistakes. But, is this not Marysville MI? When you have a small budget and can only get a limited number of LEO's on the job then why not second and third guess them. LE should be a competitive job with only the best.



    Is it wrong to feel bad for the others in the department? Assistant Chief Ron Buckmaster and Chief Tim Buelow just put the whole department in a bad light.



    I think it says it all in the first seconds of the recording when the officer said "I don't care" and later in when he says "your idea of the law and mine are 2 different things" That does it right there. The OC'er took time to study that "mumbo jumbo" we call the MCL and the LEO did not. He should be relieved of duty or at least sent back to the academy to learn the MCL's that he is supposed to enforce. "You know what, sue me then" someone should. I'm ashamed that I tell my children that they can trust the police. I hope it never comes down to them having to trust this one or the Jackson BK LEO.



    Perhaps the most bothersome issue here though is that I imagine officers, who respect their position, love their job and are out of work because MI can't afford them. That’s sad that Buckmeister gets the job rather than the one who truly deserves it.



    And what’s with the two officers in uniform? By definition Buckmeister was the one being "disorderly". All of the yelling was done by him.



    Disorderly



    -adjective[/i]



    1. characterized by disorder; irregular; untidy; confused
    Peace be with you and always be with your piece!

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    +1 slugslinger
    and i'd like to add that ever since my daughter witnessed me being harassed by marysville pd, i've rethought how i teach her about police. now i tell her that police are USUALLY our friends, but that sometimes they get it wrong. and that you should never do something a police officer tells you that you KNOW is wrong.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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