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Thread: Possible illegal sign posted by Lansing?

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    I fully understand the city hall part,as there is court stuff handled there.

    what i am unsure of is the police buildings,and where it sounds like there is a local ordinance.



    this sign is directly in front of city hall in lansing,which is in front of the state capitol.


    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i see no mention of the courts on the sign, so yes, that sign is illegal. only courts, who can apparently legislate from the bench are allowed to override preemption.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    I beleive this is illegal as well, is MOC aware of this? Perhaps some membersin the Lansing area can take care of this.

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    Call

    Virg Bernero,
    Mayor,
    City Of Lansing,Michigan

    ph.517-483-4141
    http://www.lansingmi.gov/mayor/

    Ask him why this sign is up illegally??
    Tell him you are deeply concerned!!

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    dt

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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    I fully understand the city hall part,as there is court stuff handled there.


    Just realized it says local ordinances!!
    We all know what that means!!

    Is there An actual court room in city hall?
    If not it doesn't matter how much court stuff is handled in the building.

  7. #7
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Besides, I OC and CC in my city hall and police station all the time, and they ARE in the same building as the court. They have a medal detector at the bottom of the stairs that leads to the court room, not at the entrance of the building. I'm glad my city doesn't take away my basic human rights to self defence.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    54A District court is located on the 6th floor.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    but not in the police stations

  10. #10
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Nope only the 6th floor of city hall.

    In a perfect world the 6th floor would be the only part pistol free. Actually in a perfect world all these silly PFZ's would not exist!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    so what exactly should be done about this?

    send the mayor an email?
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    i see no mention of the courts on the sign, so yes, that sign is illegal. only courts, who can apparently legislate from the bench are allowed to override preemption.
    The ban on weapons in courts isn't legislation from the bench, it is an administrative order from the bench. Violation of it may result in a contempt of court charge, but that's it. Depending on how egregious the violation is, it may be civil or criminal CoC; however, courts must exercise great restraint with CoC, therefore it would likely be civil CoC.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    there should have been quotes around "legislation from the bench" as it was not meant literally.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    there should have been quotes around "legislation from the bench" as it was not meant literally.
    Oh, ok. Sometimes folksthink it's some crazyinterpretation or perverse application of an existing law by the court, thus "legislating" from the bench. I didn't know if you were one of those folks.

    Due to separation of powers, probably the only wayto removesuch an administrative order is to electjustices that will remove it.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  15. #15
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    Call

    Virg Bernero,
    Mayor,
    City Of Lansing,Michigan

    ph.517-483-4141
    http://www.lansingmi.gov/mayor/

    Ask him why this sign is up illegally??
    Tell him you are deeply concerned!!


    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990


    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    Call

    Virg Bernero,
    Mayor,
    City Of Lansing,Michigan

    ph.517-483-4141
    http://www.lansingmi.gov/mayor/

    Ask him why this sign is up illegally??
    Tell him you are deeply concerned!!


    FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990


    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    This has been discussed for years and the answer is always the presiding JUDGE has ruled the entire building a court or has court access/business and therefore they are using the administrative rule as an excuse to ban firearms from the entire complex.

    No one that I know has actively challenged this rule. I have always felt they were overstepping their bounds. Until they get sued I doubt they will rescind the band soon.

    BTW I was at the court a couple of weeks ago and the sign outside city hall does mention courts and they have a guard and metal detector at the main entrance.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    but the police station should not be included then I sent an email to the mayor

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    but the police station should not be included then I sent an email to the mayor
    Well, it is attached and you can access the other building from the police station. Does the PD engage in court business? You have to look at the Supreme Courts administrative ruling and review the wording.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
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    isnt there more the one pd in lansing?

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    isnt there more the one pd in lansing?
    One Lansing PD but other precincts. I don't know what the policy is in other precincts, but the main PD HQs is attached to the city hall and the court.

    If you are asking if there are other Policeagencies operatingin Lansing, then yes the MSP, along with a few federal LE agencies.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    isnt there more the one pd in lansing?
    One Lansing PD but other precincts. I don't know what the policy is in other precincts, but the main PD HQs is attached to the city hall and the court.

    If you are asking if there are other Policeagencies operatingin Lansing, then yes the MSP, along with a few federal LE agencies.
    two other Precincts in Lansing,the south precinct and the north precinct.

    the sign does not say only the police HQ building is off limits,says all police buildings,so legally one should assume they are trying to make all the police buildings pfz's

    and it says local ordinance,which is my biggest concern,i havent checked for an actual ordinance yet though.

    i ordered 10 photo copies of the sign,which i will show to MOC members at the Lansing seminar,and the Mason lunch,for further discussion.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  22. #22
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    cabman1 wrote:
    isnt there more the one pd in lansing?
    One Lansing PD but other precincts. I don't know what the policy is in other precincts, but the main PD HQs is attached to the city hall and the court.

    If you are asking if there are other Policeagencies operatingin Lansing, then yes the MSP, along with a few federal LE agencies.
    two other Precincts in Lansing,the south precinct and the north precinct.

    the sign does not say only the police HQ building is off limits,says all police buildings,so legally one should assume they are trying to make all the police buildings pfz's

    and it says local ordinance,which is my biggest concern,i havent checked for an actual ordinance yet though.

    i ordered 10 photo copies of the sign,which i will show to MOC members at the Lansing seminar,and the Mason lunch,for further discussion.
    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If you have time see if the other precincts have a no firearm sign. If they do then they are unenforceable.

    I suspect the ordinance part was added out of ignorance or asa knowing deceit.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If you have time see if the other precincts have a no firearm sign. If they do then they are unenforceable.

    I suspect the ordinance part was added out of ignorance or asa knowing deceit.
    I will check the South precinct sometime in the next week,i gotta head over that way anyways to talk with the fire chief about a job!

    Would the library have the local Ordinances? so that i can check to see if there is in fact ordinances or not,it is right next to the South precinct and the Fire station.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If you have time see if the other precincts have a no firearm sign. If they do then they are unenforceable.

    I suspect the ordinance part was added out of ignorance or asa knowing deceit.
    I will check the South precinct sometime in the next week,i gotta head over that way anyways to talk with the fire chief about a job!

    Would the library have the local Ordinances? so that i can check to see if there is in fact ordinances or not,it is right next to the South precinct and the Fire station.
    Great, see if the south precinct has a sign. What ordinance would be enforceable in regards to firearm possession? I don't see why you would need to check. ButI think Lansing ordinances are on line at municode.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  25. #25
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    696.05. Weapons on college campuses and buildings. No regularly enrolled student, guest or other person shall have in his or her possession on any college campus or in any college building, either concealed or not concealed, any rifle, shotgun, revolver, knife, fire bomb, explosive or any other dangerous weapon or ordnance. (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)

    696.02. Carrying weapons in public places. No person shall carry any firearm, air rifle, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow or other dangerous weapon in any public place, subject to the following exceptions: (a)When it is in a case and is not loaded; (b)In the case of a bow or crossbow, when it is unstrung or encased, or when it is being carried under the direct supervision of authorized public recreational personnel; or (c)Where and as otherwise permitted by State law. (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)



    696.03. Transportation of firearms in motor vehicles. No person shall transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle a firearm, unless the firearm is unloaded and is one or more of the following: (a)Taken down; (b)Enclosed in a case; (c)Carried in the trunk of the vehicle; and/or (d)Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle. (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)





    they all look to be pre-preemption ordinances(looks to be passed in 1986)

    can someone explain this one to me too?legality wise.




    696.06. Machines dispensing ammunition or explosives. No person shall display for public patronage or keep for operation any machine or device which dispenses or vends cartridges, bullets, shotgun shells or similar articles of an explosive nature and capable of being used in firearms.



    ill check the signs asap,probably going to take a few days at least.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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