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Thread: Non-incident in Herndon, but... interesting

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    I drove to NOVA Armament in Herndon after work today. At about 4:30 P.M. I legally parked at the curb about 100 feet down the street (no other vehicles in front, behind or across the street). Just as I got out ofmy vehicle and headed to the curb in the direction of the store, I saw a Herndon scout car coming in the opposite direction. The officer was scanning the surroundings as he should have been and zeroed in on my Glock 23carriedat 3 o'clockin a OWB retention holster. I was dressed in 5.11 pants and and Thunder Ranch polo shirt. I nodded hello, but got no response.

    As I got to the door, I saw him make a very demonstrative U-turn and get behind my vehicle. I stopped inside the doorway and observed him as he proceeded to run the vehicle plate and, I am sure, realized that I do not look like a Mary (my wife) to whom the vehicle is registered. After about 60 seconds and avoiding all eye contact (stared down into his VDT) he took off just as demonstratively as his U-turn.

    I know form experience that there are much more inconspicuous ways to run plates. I am thinking that he wanted to make a point, but I am not sure what it was. I am a friendly guy and especially being a former cop, Iwas hoping that he would initiate a conversation, but he did not. I am not sure Iunderstnd that law enforcement technique.


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    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    These are the old ways of Herndon. It's hard to let go of tradition.

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    altajava wrote:
    These are the old ways of Herndon. It's hard to let go of tradition.
    Perhaps. The guy was older (my age), in his mid/late 40s. I suppose, pushing a scout car at that age would make some people bitter.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Are LEOs generally allowed to run tags on cars that are in view of the public for any or no reason whatsoever? Or is there some (any) degree of requirement that it must be for an official purpose?

    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

    What is the difference between an LEO running the tag number of an attractive blond for a name and address, and running the tag number of a law-abiding OCer, just fishing for a hit on some database?

    I would submit that to run a tag solely for either of those reasons should be both illegal and unethical!

    It would be interesting to submit a FOIA request for the radio traffic here to see just how unprofessional this officer may have really been.

    TFred


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    On a related note I noticed on I66 a VSP vehicle with those fancy auto-plate readers on the trunk lid.

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    TFred wrote:
    Are LEOs generally allowed to run tags on cars that are in view of the public for any or no reason whatsoever? Or is there some (any) degree of requirement that it must be for an official purpose?

    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

    What is the difference between an LEO running the tag number of an attractive blond for a name and address, and running the tag number of a law-abiding OCer, just fishing for a hit on some database?

    I would submit that to run a tag solely for either of those reasons should be both illegal and unethical!

    It would be interesting to submit a FOIA request for the radio traffic here to see just how unprofessional this officer may have really been.

    TFred
    Well from experience, when you are certified in VCIN/NCIC... they make it clear that you must only run tags for law enforcement purposes. However, most officers run a variety of plates during their shift (fishing). It is easy to articulate that you run plates in order to catch stolen vehicles, suspended drivers, etc. Proving that you only ran the blonde's plate because she was attractive would be difficult or only because he/she was OC'ing. I never heard anything about a car being on private property that would exclude being able to be run.

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Are LEOs generally allowed to run tags on cars that are in view of the public for any or no reason whatsoever? Or is there some (any) degree of requirement that it must be for an official purpose?

    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

    What is the difference between an LEO running the tag number of an attractive blond for a name and address, and running the tag number of a law-abiding OCer, just fishing for a hit on some database?

    I would submit that to run a tag solely for either of those reasons should be both illegal and unethical!

    It would be interesting to submit a FOIA request for the radio traffic here to see just how unprofessional this officer may have really been.

    TFred
    Well from experience, when you are certified in VCIN/NCIC... they make it clear that you must only run tags for law enforcement purposes. However, most officers run a variety of plates during their shift (fishing). It is easy to articulate that you run plates in order to catch stolen vehicles, suspended drivers, etc. Proving that you only ran the blonde's plate because she was attractive would be difficult or only because he/she was OC'ing. I never heard anything about a car being on private property that would exclude being able to be run.
    While I can't quote the court cases, there is plenty of legal precedent from a variety of states that reasonable suspicion is not required to run plates or owners of plates, once you find out to whom the plate belongs. I agree with NovaCop, the policy (everywhere I know) is that there has to be a law enforcement purpose for running a plate. And I do knowpersonallyone young officer some years back who lost his job for reasons which started with him running a plate of a hot female. Otherwise, I've never known anyone being questioned for why they ran a specific plate. Fishing is allowed, and in the days of VDTs invehicles it bacame a lot easier. In the old days dispatchers hated cops who gave them a plate to run every two minutes. I can see the privacy argument, but on the other hand, I can tell you that this is how a lot of people with warrants and suspended licenses are taken off the street, stolen cars recovered, etc.

    TFred, I did not see the officer on the radio. There was no reason for him to call this out. He just ran the plate, perhaps my wife who is the vehicle owner, and took off. FOIA will not help. And, honestly, I don't much care if the guy has a chip on his shoulder. I just though that it was interesting.

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    I never heard anything about a car being on private property that would exclude being able to be run.
    Covering the plates with cardboard or removing the plates altogether would exclude being able to be run. :P

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    gis wrote:
    We missed each other by a few hrs.
    Had something similar happen last week when I picked up my wife from work.
    I was at the parkabout toget in the car after letting my dog run for a bit. The officer (herndon PD)saw my G20 and flipped a U-turn got behind me as I was driving down the road he probably read my rear window decorations and ran my plate which also happens to be registered to my wife, she doesn't have a VA permit.
    He did give me a non friendly look as he drove past me, it hurt my feelings.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.

    Wonder if it has been challenged?

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    IWe missed each other by a few hrs.
    Had something similar happen last week when I picked up my wife from work.
    I was at the parkabout toget in the car after letting my dog run for a bit. The officer (herndon PD)saw my G20 and flipped a U-turn got behind me as I was driving down the road he probably read my rear window decorations and ran my plate which also happens to be registered to my wife, she doesn't have a VA permit.
    He did give me a non friendly look as he drove past me, it hurt my feelings.
    I did mention this incident to TJ at NOVA. He said that the Herndon chief wants to put out a bulletin regarding open carry. Sounds like there are some behavior patterns that need changing. In my PD in Michigan I did just that regarding open carry a couple of years ago. It's all about education and reinforcement.

    I have become a regular at NOVA Armament. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a mint PolyTech milled folder for $1000. I need more deals like that.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    [flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/v/WA5Gy32aqdo&hl=en_US&fs=1[/flash]
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    Interesting info and great video Ed.

    Does anyone know the about retention of the scanned data? ie How long does the fact that ABC-123 was observed, and scanned on M/D/Y at H:M at X location retained by the system? ( I'm speaking of non-stolen, non-wanted, non-BOL, etc.)

    Does the process scan, look in database, if no match discard? Or does it keep the scan?

    The long arm of the law gets longer all the time....





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    nova wrote:
    NovaCop10 wrote:
    I never heard anything about a car being on private property that would exclude being able to be run.
    Covering the plates with cardboard or removing the plates altogether would exclude being able to be run. :P
    Southern Va. mud is your friend!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Southern Va. mud is your friend!
    Then you get a citation for plate obstruction.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Southern Va. mud is your friend!
    Then you get a citation for plate obstruction.
    Just spray paint...."Farm Vehicle" on the tailgate and do away with those pesky tags.

    Did that on the F150 (The windshield was cracked and wouldn't pass inspection) Country life is great!

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    doug23838 wrote:
    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    Interesting info and great video Ed.

    Does anyone know the about retention of the scanned data? ie How long does the fact that ABC-123 was observed, and scanned on M/D/Y at H:M at X location retained by the system? ( I'm speaking of non-stolen, non-wanted, non-BOL, etc.)

    Does the process scan, look in database, if no match discard? Or does it keep the scan?

    The long arm of the law gets longer all the time....



    I've looked into these systems in the past. Generally, there is a capability to save data locally on the VDT or push to a central server. How long the data is saved can be configured and really depends on how much storage is available. I amnot aware of laws governing this, but I am sure that departments create their own regs. If I was running a system like this (I wasn't), I would want to retain the data for some period of time for internal audit and legal CYA purposes, just like the car video/audio. If I had an officer who routinely ignored system alerts, I would want to know about it for disciplinary purposes. For better or worse all of the technology in the scout car is just as good at spying on theofficer as it is on the public. All depends on who is running the show and their objectives.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    Interesting info and great video Ed.

    Does anyone know the about retention of the scanned data? ie How long does the fact that ABC-123 was observed, and scanned on M/D/Y at H:M at X location retained by the system? ( I'm speaking of non-stolen, non-wanted, non-BOL, etc.)

    Does the process scan, look in database, if no match discard? Or does it keep the scan?

    The long arm of the law gets longer all the time....



    I've looked into these systems in the past. Generally, there is a capability to save data locally on the VDT or push to a central server. How long the data is saved can be configured and really depends on how much storage is available. I amnot aware of laws governing this, but I am sure that departments create their own regs. If I was running a system like this (I wasn't), I would want to retain the data for some period of time for internal audit and legal CYA purposes, just like the car video/audio. If I had an officer who routinely ignored system alerts, I would want to know about it for disciplinary purposes. For better or worse all of the technology in the scout car is just as good at spying on theofficer as it is on the public. All depends on who is running the show and their objectives.
    If you look at it GLS, license numbers are scanned or photographed hundreds or thousands of times a day in the cities and more populated counties.

    Nearly all new traffic lights have video as do toll plaza's, private parking lots and security cameras near sensitive public buildings.

    Unless you're just coming to town from the farm with mud on your tags or hauling agriculture products in a "Farm Vehicle" the tags get videoed and potentially scanned.

    Welcome to 1984!

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    gis wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    Interesting info and great video Ed.

    Does anyone know the about retention of the scanned data? ie How long does the fact that ABC-123 was observed, and scanned on M/D/Y at H:M at X location retained by the system? ( I'm speaking of non-stolen, non-wanted, non-BOL, etc.)

    Does the process scan, look in database, if no match discard? Or does it keep the scan?

    The long arm of the law gets longer all the time....



    I've looked into these systems in the past. Generally, there is a capability to save data locally on the VDT or push to a central server. How long the data is saved can be configured and really depends on how much storage is available. I amnot aware of laws governing this, but I am sure that departments create their own regs. If I was running a system like this (I wasn't), I would want to retain the data for some period of time for internal audit and legal CYA purposes, just like the car video/audio. If I had an officer who routinely ignored system alerts, I would want to know about it for disciplinary purposes. For better or worse all of the technology in the scout car is just as good at spying on theofficer as it is on the public. All depends on who is running the show and their objectives.
    If you look at it GLS, license numbers are scanned or photographed hundreds or thousands of times a day in the cities and more populated counties.

    Nearly all new traffic lights have video as do toll plaza's, private parking lots and security cameras near sensitive public buildings.

    Unless you're just coming to town from the farm with mud on your tags or hauling agriculture products in a "Farm Vehicle" the tags get videoed and potentially scanned.

    Welcome to 1984!
    You are 100% correct Nap. It's been 1984 for a while. And it's not only about plates. Unless you live completely under the electronic "radar", which hardly anyone does these days,it's easy for anyone (LEO or private citizen) to find out pretty muchanything about anybody. The only saving grace is there is getting to be to much information out there, and it is getting harder to find stuff.

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    Ric in Richmond wrote:
    They routinely run ALL the plates in a parking lot with a video plate reader.
    Interesting info and great video Ed.

    Does anyone know the about retention of the scanned data? ie How long does the fact that ABC-123 was observed, and scanned on M/D/Y at H:M at X location retained by the system? ( I'm speaking of non-stolen, non-wanted, non-BOL, etc.)

    Does the process scan, look in database, if no match discard? Or does it keep the scan?

    The long arm of the law gets longer all the time....



    I've looked into these systems in the past. Generally, there is a capability to save data locally on the VDT or push to a central server. How long the data is saved can be configured and really depends on how much storage is available. I amnot aware of laws governing this, but I am sure that departments create their own regs. If I was running a system like this (I wasn't), I would want to retain the data for some period of time for internal audit and legal CYA purposes, just like the car video/audio. If I had an officer who routinely ignored system alerts, I would want to know about it for disciplinary purposes. For better or worse all of the technology in the scout car is just as good at spying on theofficer as it is on the public. All depends on who is running the show and their objectives.
    The Brits are doing it from a helicopter. 5 plates each second from 2000 ft. And this is 5 year old post. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...eplate_sc.html

    The Brit's don't hide that they're keeping the date/time/location data.

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    I drove to NOVA Armament in Herndon after work today. At about 4:30 P.M.
    I must've missed you by mere minutes, or perhaps saw you at the shop and didn't realize it.

    I wonder if the officer hadgotten a call about two people with guns at Dairy Queen, or walking down Lynn Street...



    PS - The Chocolate Xtreme Blizzard was exactly what I'd needed that afternoon.


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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Riana wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I drove to NOVA Armament in Herndon after work today. At about 4:30 P.M.
    I must've missed you by mere minutes, or perhaps saw you at the shop and didn't realize it.

    I wonder if the officer hadgotten a call about two people with guns at Dairy Queen, or walking down Lynn Street...



    PS - The Chocolate Xtreme Blizzard was exactly what I'd needed that afternoon.
    No, you weren't in the shop when I was there. I came in to pickup the bayonet for my PolyTech and hung out for about 90 minutes.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    Riana wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I drove to NOVA Armament in Herndon after work today. At about 4:30 P.M.
    I must've missed you by mere minutes, or perhaps saw you at the shop and didn't realize it.

    I wonder if the officer hadgotten a call about two people with guns at Dairy Queen, or walking down Lynn Street...



    PS - The Chocolate Xtreme Blizzard was exactly what I'd needed that afternoon.
    No, you weren't in the shop when I was there. I came in to pickup the bayonet for my PolyTech and hung out for about 90 minutes.
    Yeah, I missed that. I usually leave around 4-ish, if not sooner. TJ and I had walked over to DQ when he got there to get our ice cream fixes.


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    As best as we can tell, the Herndon Police Department is neutral toward us. I don't think they like having a gun store in the town to monitor. However, the Herndon Police who have come into the shop have been friendly. After our 3rd day of being open, the Herndon Chief of Police, his Captain and 2 lead investigatory sergeants came out and introduced themselves. They were cordial and the Chief even stated that he would issue a directive to his officers about increased Open Carry down this way. So, they should be fully aware. I think the Herndon PD is simply trying to be vigilant.
    TJ

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    NOVA Armament wrote:
    As best as we can tell, the Herndon Police Department is neutral toward us. I don't think they like having a gun store in the town to monitor. However, the Herndon Police who have come into the shop have been friendly. After our 3rd day of being open, the Herndon Chief of Police, his Captain and 2 lead investigatory sergeants came out and introduced themselves. They were cordial and the Chief even stated that he would issue a directive to his officers about increased Open Carry down this way. So, they should be fully aware. I think the Herndon PD is simply trying to be vigilant.
    TJ
    I wonder if every new CVS, Rite-Aid, Walgreens, etc, gets the same level of "vigilance"?

    I'd bet that a whole lot more illegally sold drugs happen out of a drug store than illegally sold guns out of a gun store.

    TFred

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