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Thread: Stopped at Raytown Walmart finally

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    A Jackson County deputy named... Heckadon??? stopped me as I was exiting Raytown Walmart. He started by asking if I was an LEO. He was so polite I stopped and decided to engage him. I said no. He asked why I was carrying a weapon. I asked him if he had time to protect me 24 hours a day. He said no. I said "That's why I carry." He asked if I felt I was in danger. I said "No more or less than any other citizen but I decided not to be an ignorant victim like the rest." He chuckled slightly at that, so I decided to continue the conversation and did not ask to leave. He asked if I knew that it was not ok to carry in the store. I said that I had not seen any signs asking me not to and if it was the local store policy. He said it was policy for ALL Walmarts. I was tempted to start in on my "Am I being detained?" mantra but he seemed to be gearing up to puff his chest and start strutting and I was in the mood to find out how much law he knew. So I took over and started asking questions like, "Do you know the Raytown ordinance concerning illegal use of weapons or the Missouri statute?" He said he could not quote them so I did Then I asked him why he was stopping me. He said because he had NEVER seen a civilian open carry before, "unusual behavior". I asked him if he had ever heard of situational awareness because I HAVE seen other people carry open in the Kansas City area. He tried to take control by asking what I would do if someone tried to take my gun. I said, "Why do you think they would be able to?" He asked if I had any weapons retention training (which I do). I asked, "Why would you think that I don't." He said I certainly had military bearing (US Army veteran) so I must be former military or law enforcement. I did admit that I had a background conducive to having some knowledge of what I was doing. He said, "I'm a cop and even I don't carry off duty." I asked him, "Do you like being defenseless out in public?" He said it was a bother to carry around the extra weight. I asked, "So why carry now?" He said it was part of his job. We went through all the same old tired "What ifs" and I answered them all with questions of my own. When he finally suggested that he thought some guys might carry just to look tough, I told him that insults were an end to the conversation and he tried to recover by saying, "Well, not you specifically, you don't need to get sensitive" so I asked, "Is that why YOU became a cop, to look tough?" He looked kind of pissed then I said, "Fair is fair, you fired first," and I chuckled a little to lighten the mood which seemed to work. At one point, he started telling me that he had a RIGHT and duty to stop anyone and ask questions. I said, "Would I have a right to refuse to answer his questions?" He said, "Technically, except you would have to tell who you are." I asked if that was state law. He said yes. I asked, "Does Missouri statute require you to detain me for a specific articulable crime before requiring me to identify myself," to which he said no. I said," I recommend you brush up on the law. Do you read all statutes and ordinances for the jurisdictions that you work in." Of course he said yes so I said, "Then it must be a memory issue," and I quoted him the statutes by number and text and offered to let him view them on my iPhone, which he declined. He said,"You seem to be well versed in the law." I said, "Would you expect less from an intelligent citizen who knows that he will be questioned occasionally by law enforcement officers for a legal activity?" He said, "Then why do it?" to which I replied, "Do you do everything you do because it makes everyone else around you happy?" I knew I had out-"alpha-dogged" him when he pulled out that he was being assigned to DEA as a way to bring up his street cred. I congratulated him and told him I would be happy to leave and that I would follow up with management to clarify the issue and I thanked him for his time, shook his hand and walked off!!! lol... That was a little risky because he did not dismiss me EXPLICITLY but he inferred it by shaking my hand and nodding as I began to move away. He had also earlier informed me that failure to stop on a "ped check" was reasonable suspicion, just like failing to pull over in your car. They can stop you any time. One thing: He never asked for my name or ID. He knew (we knew) I was in charge of the interview. Next time I see him, I might resort to the "Am I being detained?" stonewall... but it was kind of fun knowing I did not HAVE to answer his questions. And 98% of my half of the conversation was questions. That is the way to control the conversation. CheckPointUSA on youtube taught me that. The worst part was that my phone battery died when I hit record on the video cam. I knew it was low when I left the house... lesson learned... I have been prepared about 30 different times over the last few weeks when I have seen LEO's about but none have approached me... until my phone died... lol... this would have been fun to hear

    I sent an email to Walmart corporate. I already read a previous response from Walmart on another thread, a confusing response. Corporate policy says it is ok if it is legal... unless the manager says so. Way to be clear... we will see what I get.

    Make sure to go after 9pm if you wish to see the deputy. DON'T mention this incident or he may accuse you of trying to cause trouble because you already know the policy (according to him and the asst manager)
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    peterarthur wrote:
    One thing: He never asked for my name or ID. He knew (we knew) I was in charge of the interview. Next time I see him, I might resort to the "Am I being detained?" stonewall... but it was kind of fun knowing I did not HAVE to answer his questions. And 98% of my half of the conversation was questions. That is the way to control the conversation.
    Well it sounds like you had a very good encounter if you ask me.

    While everyone is free to do as they wish, perhaps instead of Stonewalling him, since you know his name, approach him and greet him by name at a slightly higher than normal volume and engage him in conversation, Let him know you contacted the management and they clearly defined that they follow the law for every location, nothing more and nothing less, ask him about his DEA appointment etc.

    Show him that the OC folks are good people and when they are not violated they are not all hard cases about rights, but friendly folks whom simply do not like confrontation. Kind of reserve the attitude for the ones with a bad attitude kind of thing.

    A lot of really nice LEO's are 2a friendly, I will admit very few are OC friendly, but at the same time, all behavior is learned, the more positive encounters we have, the more friends we will gain.


    I am glad you had a positive encounter and it sounds like you did a bang up job without at any point having to concede your rights beyond being asked to stop.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    That would have been a great youtube video. Some of them are badge heavy...nice story..Thanks for sharing!

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    LMTD wrote:
    peterarthur wrote:
    One thing: He never asked for my name or ID. He knew (we knew) I was in charge of the interview. Next time I see him, I might resort to the "Am I being detained?" stonewall... but it was kind of fun knowing I did not HAVE to answer his questions. And 98% of my half of the conversation was questions. That is the way to control the conversation.
    Well it sounds like you had a very good encounter if you ask me.

    While everyone is free to do as they wish, perhaps instead of Stonewalling him, since you know his name, approach him and greet him by name at a slightly higher than normal volume and engage him in conversation, Let him know you contacted the management and they clearly defined that they follow the law for every location, nothing more and nothing less, ask him about his DEA appointment etc.

    Show him that the OC folks are good people and when they are not violated they are not all hard cases about rights, but friendly folks whom simply do not like confrontation. Kind of reserve the attitude for the ones with a bad attitude kind of thing.

    A lot of really nice LEO's are 2a friendly, I will admit very few are OC friendly, but at the same time, all behavior is learned, the more positive encounters we have, the more friends we will gain.


    I am glad you had a positive encounter and it sounds like you did a bang up job without at any point having to concede your rights beyond being asked to stop.
    Make no mistake, he was very hostile about my open carry but he conducted himself professionally for most of the encounter, even when I deflected his sarcastic comment back I think he respected that a little. Pretty good guy considering he has poor notions about the importance of exercising 2A rights. Since he started nice and played nice mostly, I was glad to talk to him. I just let him know that disrespect would get him shut down. I kept it light and conversational while he remained mostly professional, aloof and authoritarian without trying to violate my rights. He did the best he could considering his opinion and I respect that, too. I think I might have slightly influenced his opinion on "civilian" open carry, that we are not just a bunch of wild-eyed wannabes, that at least some of us might have training and experience and a knowledge of the law.

    So I would agree that the encounter was pretty good Thanks for chiming in on this one.
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    Awesome report, and it sounds like you gained a bit of respect in the process.

    I would next time go a little out of my way to engage friendly conversation upon the next happen chance meeting,,,, Kinda letting him feel like someone in the crowd does in fact have his 6 if the necessity would arise.

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    Yes, I would, in fact, have his 6 if ever necessary. And I know he would have mine. One of the 2 times that I used a weapon to stop a crime, the officer that arrived on scene had been advised that a civilian was holding 2 suspects with a firearm, and he thanked me and told me that he would take over the crime scene. He would not however try to cuff the suspects until his partner had them covered. That is a different story ..... in California no less!

    And as soon as I hear from Walmart, either way, I will be visiting to speak with the manager and the officer if he is there. If Walmart says no guns, I will make sure that the manager knows that I will not be doing business with them. If they say yes, I will verify that he is ok with it also so that I can deal with the officer directly if he should ever be a problem. Everyone should remember that we (the taxpayers) have an employer/employee relationship with police and we should keep our master (taxpayer) to slave (cop) relationship in mind when speaking to them. This does not mean that we speak down or mean to them but that we educate, encourage and chastise mildly as a parent would an ignorant child. This is probably easier for those of us who have 9 children but keep that picture in mind and take the high road as often as possible.
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    peterarthur wrote:
    And as soon as I hear from Walmart
    walmart has no corp policies that restrict weapons i don't believe...unless they have been changed and left it up to individual store management. last i knew they followed what the state / local law was on firearms.

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    Thanks. I will still wait for their response. I spoke to an assistant manager today and told her to take her time as I had to grab what I came for and had to leave. She said she had never SEEN a weapon in the store and had never thought about it or ever heard a policy about it. She was believable too. I saw Deputy Heckadon (correct spelling now) and I called him by name and greeted him warmly at the entrance. He smiled and shook my hand and gave me a very sincere "Welcome back". (Yes, I was unarmed). I told him I was waiting on Corporate and local management for more info and he said he appreciated my methods of looking into the matter. I think we may be good friends when all is said and done (tongue in cheek )

    No word yet, I expect it will be a few days at least.
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    sounds like you got the better LEO than me, but good job on the stop, I talked to the Manager but he never called me back to let me know what they came up with,



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    I like to think he was better because I handled him well
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    Still no response from Walmart... Stonewalled? Time for a followup email...
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    ComSec wrote:
    sounds like you got the better LEO than me, but good job on the stop, I talked to the Manager but he never called me back to let me know what they came up with,

    comsec...you mean to tell me that most people don't prefer that officer that wants to throw himself on the hood of your car as you're trying to peacefully leave?!

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    woot

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    One other thing... the LEO saw my wife and I 2 weeks earlier both OCing and did not speak up. He just skulked a bit and I almost walked up to him to get it over with. Now I can never catch the manager there and no response from corp...
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    Apparently I had a reply on Tuesday but it fell into my spam folder. Here is the response from Walmart Corporation:

    "From: Walmart Customer Service <cstreply@wal-mart.com>
    Subject: Response from Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. (Ref #000000025510386)
    To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx
    Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 4:39 PM

    Thank you for your message.

    Dear Xxxx Xxxxxx,

    There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally permitted by their state to carry the handgun.

    As a private property owner, Walmart has the authority to ask customers to remove their handgun or leave the store on a case-by-case basis if customers or Walmart associates express concerns about the handgun.

    Sincerely,
    Walmart Customer Care



    For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email."

    I read this as I can carry IN any time I want but I must leave if any customer or employee "express concerns" and it is handled on a case-by-case basis.

    Time to go shopping
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    peterarthur wrote:
    Apparently I had a reply on Tuesday but it fell into my spam folder. Here is the response from Walmart Corporation:

    "From: Walmart Customer Service <cstreply@wal-mart.com>
    Subject: Response from Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. (Ref #000000025510386)
    To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx
    Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 4:39 PM

    Thank you for your message.

    Dear Xxxx Xxxxxx,

    There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally permitted by their state to carry the handgun.

    As a private property owner, Walmart has the authority to ask customers to remove their handgun or leave the store on a case-by-case basis if customers or Walmart associates express concerns about the handgun.

    Sincerely,
    Walmart Customer Care



    For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email."

    I read this as I can carry IN any time I want but I must leave if any customer or employee "express concerns" and it is handled on a case-by-case basis.

    Time to go shopping
    i love being right. lol.

    bring that with you the next time the LEO decides to have a chat with you.

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    I printed it and put it my wallet before I even posted it
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    I took the email that I printed out and went to Walmart again. I spoke with 2 great associates named Bobbie (female) and Jake. I gave Jake the email and he called his manager, Collin. Collin said he had no problem with the OC and asked Jake to post a copy of the email up in the safety response area of the company bulletin so that employees and LEO's would know the CORPORATE policy regarding weapons. The only roadblock left is that it only takes an employee or customer complaint to get you kicked OUT, but that does not prevent you from returning... I seriously doubt we will see many customer complaints and if they kick me out for employee complaints, I will contact management and let them know they lost my business... but I OC'd right after I talked to Jake and 2 LEO's, one in uniform and one in civvies walked past me with barely a glance.
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    awesome

  20. #20
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    I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

    Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

    Speaking from experience.

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    No Dice

    Quote Originally Posted by Waveceptor View Post
    I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

    Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

    Speaking from experience.
    Raytown,MO

    Sec. 13-61. Peace disturbance.
    A person commits the offense of peace disturbance if:
    (a) He unreasonably and knowingly causes alarm to another person or persons not physically on the same premises by:
    (1) Loud and unusual noise; or
    (2) Loud and abusive language; or
    (3) Fighting; or
    (4) Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
    (b) He is in a public place or on private property of another without consent and unreasonably and knowingly causes alarm to another person or persons by:
    (1) Loud and unusual noise; or
    (2) Loud and abusive language; or
    (3) Fighting; or
    (4) Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
    (c) He is in a public place or on private property of another without consent and purposely causes inconvenience to another person or persons by unreasonably and physically obstructing:
    (1) Vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or
    (2) The free ingress or egress to or from public or private places.
    (d) Exceptions: The term "loud and unusual noise" does not include noise or sound which would constitute a violation of the prohibition against the operation of loud sound amplification systems from within or upon vehicles as established in section 23-225 of this Code.

    Your argument does not hold water. You can't be charged for peace disturbance for peoples fears. Your advice to ask inform and ask permit ion to OC in every retail location is an odd one.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post

    Your argument does not hold water. You can't be charged for peace disturbance for peoples fears. Your advice to ask inform and ask permit ion to OC in every retail location is an odd one.

    Doc

    +1

    Otherwise, the general public would be in charge of determining who goes to jail. Don't like Joe Snuffy's shirt? CALL THE COPS!

    If it disturbed you, they'd have to take him to jail, right?

    Don't like Dave out walking his German Shepherd? CALL THE COPS! They'd have to take him to jail. Peace disturbance.

    Mad at the neighbor? Call the COPS! Maude looked at me funny.
    Guy in front of you grabbed the last box of Cap'n Crunch off the shelf? CALL THE COPS! He almost hit me with his cart.
    See someone legally OC'ing? CALL THE COPS!.......

    ...nope. FAIL. For the exact same reason all the others do. In order to disturb the peace, you have to perform a specifically prohibited act. Since OC'ing is not specifically prohibited, it fails at meeting the requirements of peace disturbance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waveceptor View Post
    I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

    Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

    Speaking from experience.
    Since you're speaking from experience, did you get busted on disturbing the peace while OCing ?

  24. #24
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    No I haven't been formally charged with anything, but I also only shop in placed that I have been in before. I don't shop outside my home town 95% of the time. I also respect the public enough to carry concealed if I am going someplace that does not know me personally. I prefer to no draw attention to myself. I have on the other hand been OCing when a guy tried to mug a person close by. When I drew down on the individual, the public went nuts and yes I was detained for several hours because of it. I prefer anonymity now. So when something like that does happen My CCW is more well recieved since is does show that I have taken at least some courses with firearms and know at least a little about them. Some guy walking down the street with a G17 strapped to a thigh holster strutting his big stuff is not what the community would consider helpful or peacekeeping. It is intimidating. So yes a Judge can and will up hold Peace Disturbance, or civil disorder. Or even in rear occasions even Assault, By placing a person in fear of harm.

    I carry a firearm with me everyday. sometimes OC sometimes CCW. I plan my every and entire day around carrying a weapon. I have been carrying a firearm since I was 21 years old. As taught by my father. I practice with my primary firearm 3 to 5 times a week. I have a 24hour range that I can use for accuracy. I also do practically drills for real world "what if" senarios. I probally have more firearms training than most of you outside of the active military who are on this forum. I joined this Forum to learn more about the relationships with LEOs and I hope to get most of you to see why LEOs are our biggest aid or worst enemy. I like I posting. There is in fact no law giving the right to openly carry. There just is not a law saying that you cannot. That is something that we all need to remember when trying to make a mockery of LEOs.
    Last edited by Waveceptor; 07-20-2010 at 02:29 PM.

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    http://www.moga.mo.gov/%5Cconst%5Ca01023.htm

    Right to keep and bear arms--exception.
    Section 23. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.
    Last edited by 9026543; 07-20-2010 at 02:33 PM.

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