Stopped at Raytown Walmart finally

sohighlyunlikely · Jul 20, 2010

No Dice

Waveceptor said:
I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

Speaking from experience.

Raytown,MO

Sec. 13-61. Peace disturbance.
A person commits the offense of peace disturbance if:
(a) He unreasonably and knowingly causes alarm to another person or persons not physically on the same premises by:
(1) Loud and unusual noise; or
(2) Loud and abusive language; or
(3) Fighting; or
(4) Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
(b) He is in a public place or on private property of another without consent and unreasonably and knowingly causes alarm to another person or persons by:
(1) Loud and unusual noise; or
(2) Loud and abusive language; or
(3) Fighting; or
(4) Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
(c) He is in a public place or on private property of another without consent and purposely causes inconvenience to another person or persons by unreasonably and physically obstructing:
(1) Vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or
(2) The free ingress or egress to or from public or private places.
(d) Exceptions: The term "loud and unusual noise" does not include noise or sound which would constitute a violation of the prohibition against the operation of loud sound amplification systems from within or upon vehicles as established in section 23-225 of this Code.

Your argument does not hold water. You can't be charged for peace disturbance for peoples fears. Your advice to ask inform and ask permit ion to OC in every retail location is an odd one.

Doc

Superlite27 · Jul 20, 2010

sohighlyunlikely said:
Your argument does not hold water. You can't be charged for peace disturbance for peoples fears. Your advice to ask inform and ask permit ion to OC in every retail location is an odd one.

Doc

+1

Otherwise, the general public would be in charge of determining who goes to jail. Don't like Joe Snuffy's shirt? CALL THE COPS!

If it disturbed you, they'd have to take him to jail, right?

Don't like Dave out walking his German Shepherd? CALL THE COPS! They'd have to take him to jail. Peace disturbance.

Mad at the neighbor? Call the COPS! Maude looked at me funny.
Guy in front of you grabbed the last box of Cap'n Crunch off the shelf? CALL THE COPS! He almost hit me with his cart.
See someone legally OC'ing? CALL THE COPS!.......

...nope. FAIL. For the exact same reason all the others do. In order to disturb the peace, you have to perform a specifically prohibited act. Since OC'ing is not specifically prohibited, it fails at meeting the requirements of peace disturbance.

amclint · Jul 20, 2010

Waveceptor said:
I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

Speaking from experience.

Since you're speaking from experience, did you get busted on disturbing the peace while OCing ?

Waveceptor · Jul 20, 2010

No I haven't been formally charged with anything, but I also only shop in placed that I have been in before. I don't shop outside my home town 95% of the time. I also respect the public enough to carry concealed if I am going someplace that does not know me personally. I prefer to no draw attention to myself. I have on the other hand been OCing when a guy tried to mug a person close by. When I drew down on the individual, the public went nuts and yes I was detained for several hours because of it. I prefer anonymity now. So when something like that does happen My CCW is more well recieved since is does show that I have taken at least some courses with firearms and know at least a little about them. Some guy walking down the street with a G17 strapped to a thigh holster strutting his big stuff is not what the community would consider helpful or peacekeeping. It is intimidating. So yes a Judge can and will up hold Peace Disturbance, or civil disorder. Or even in rear occasions even Assault, By placing a person in fear of harm.

I carry a firearm with me everyday. sometimes OC sometimes CCW. I plan my every and entire day around carrying a weapon. I have been carrying a firearm since I was 21 years old. As taught by my father. I practice with my primary firearm 3 to 5 times a week. I have a 24hour range that I can use for accuracy. I also do practically drills for real world "what if" senarios. I probally have more firearms training than most of you outside of the active military who are on this forum. I joined this Forum to learn more about the relationships with LEOs and I hope to get most of you to see why LEOs are our biggest aid or worst enemy. I like I posting. There is in fact no law giving the right to openly carry. There just is not a law saying that you cannot. That is something that we all need to remember when trying to make a mockery of LEOs.

9026543 · Jul 20, 2010

http://www.moga.mo.gov/\const\a01023.htm

Right to keep and bear arms--exception.
Section 23. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.

randyj · Jul 20, 2010

Again...

"There is in fact no law giving the right to openly carry. There just is not a law saying that you cannot. That is something that we all need to remember when trying to make a mockery of LEOs."

Who's making a mockery of LEO's?? We HAVE laws for specific reasons. IF there is NO LAW AGAINST IT...then it's LEGAL. If there are incidents where there is a "shade of gray" then our Judicial system will sort it out the best that it can. Regarding the issue of OC, the issue is pretty "black and white"..IMO. This is not a hard concept to grasp...or at least is shouldn't be.

Certainly you're not suggesting..that with all of the discourse and debate over the past decade regarding 2A rights, gun rights advocacy etc...that the issue of OC has not been discussed ad nausem by State and Local municipalities thoroughly and completely? I believe our elected officials are most definately aware of the issue..and if they wanted to try to restrict OC in their particular jurisdiction...you can bet that there would be a law on the books that would make OC illegal.

Again...we are a nation of laws. Generally speaking laws by their very nature are "restrictive". I certainly don't think your advocating that a law should be enacted for every single thing we're allowed to do in public.

cshoff · Jul 20, 2010

Waveceptor said:
No I haven't been formally charged with anything, but I also only shop in placed that I have been in before. I don't shop outside my home town 95% of the time. I also respect the public enough to carry concealed if I am going someplace that does not know me personally. I prefer to no draw attention to myself. I have on the other hand been OCing when a guy tried to mug a person close by. When I drew down on the individual, the public went nuts and yes I was detained for several hours because of it. I prefer anonymity now. So when something like that does happen My CCW is more well recieved since is does show that I have taken at least some courses with firearms and know at least a little about them. Some guy walking down the street with a G17 strapped to a thigh holster strutting his big stuff is not what the community would consider helpful or peacekeeping. It is intimidating. So yes a Judge can and will up hold Peace Disturbance, or civil disorder. Or even in rear occasions even Assault, By placing a person in fear of harm.

How about if you cite just one instance where a judge has upheld a peace disturbance charge in Missouri against a person who was lawfully openly carrying a firearm? That will put the entire argument to rest once and for all.

I carry a firearm with me everyday. sometimes OC sometimes CCW. I plan my every and entire day around carrying a weapon. I have been carrying a firearm since I was 21 years old. As taught by my father. I practice with my primary firearm 3 to 5 times a week. I have a 24hour range that I can use for accuracy. I also do practically drills for real world "what if" senarios. I probally have more firearms training than most of you outside of the active military who are on this forum. I joined this Forum to learn more about the relationships with LEOs and I hope to get most of you to see why LEOs are our biggest aid or worst enemy. I like I posting. There is in fact no law giving the right to openly carry. There just is not a law saying that you cannot. That is something that we all need to remember when trying to make a mockery of LEOs.

I've only been on this forum for a short time, and I rarely open carry in public meaning that I came here more for the camaraderie (I personally know several of the members here) and to help support a right that I think should be a non-issue as far as the government is concerned. In the short time I've been here, I can't recall anyone trying to make the case that LEO's are the worst enemy of those who OC. In fact, I've seen at least as many (if not more) positive experiences posted here, as I've seen negative experiences. In short, I think most everyone here realizes that LEO's are neither the enemy or the ally as it relates to OC. The majority of LEO's simply want to do their job, do it right, and do it without prejudice. The few who do not are likely the one's you'll see talked about in the negative posts here.

Your seeming desire to treat the members here with condescension; implying that you have superior training and superior skills to them, has no bearing on this issue and does nothing to add credibility to your statements. The fact is, you have no idea how much these folks have trained, who they have trained with, or what real situations they have found themselves in and how they've reacted. If you really came here to learn more, then you might start by being less confrontational and more open to viewpoints other than your own.

KRM59 · Jul 20, 2010

E-Mailed Walmart Corporate last night

nrepuyan said:
peterarthur wrote:

walmart has no corp policies that restrict weapons i don't believe...unless they have been changed and left it up to individual store management. last i knew they followed what the state / local law was on firearms.

Just wanted to add what some already knew, but i had to E-mail Walmart myself to see first hand here is the jist of it.............

my e-mail to them...
Greetings,i am interested in Walmarts Corporate polocy on the legal open carry of a fire arm of a customer in there stores in a state where open carry is legal without a permit ?i was under the understanding that Walmart co-operates and abides by the laws of the states there stores operate in. and being in a state where open carry of a fire arm is legal without a permit, that Walmart allows such carry. I would be greatful for the correct information.

thier reply.....
Thank you for your message.

Dear Kenneth Meier,

There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally permitted by their state to carry the handgun.

As a private property owner, Walmart has the authority to ask customers to remove their handgun or leave the store on a case-by-case basis if customers or Walmart associates express concerns about the handgun.

Sincerely,
Walmart Customer Care

For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email.

KRM59 · Jul 20, 2010

cshoff said:
How about if you cite just one instance where a judge has upheld a peace disturbance charge in Missouri against a person who was lawfully openly carrying a firearm? That will put the entire argument to rest once and for all.

I've only been on this forum for a short time, and I rarely open carry in public meaning that I came here more for the camaraderie (I personally know several of the members here) and to help support a right that I think should be a non-issue as far as the government is concerned. In the short time I've been here, I can't recall anyone trying to make the case that LEO's are the worst enemy of those who OC. In fact, I've seen at least as many (if not more) positive experiences posted here, as I've seen negative experiences. In short, I think most everyone here realizes that LEO's are neither the enemy or the ally as it relates to OC. The majority of LEO's simply want to do their job, do it right, and do it without prejudice. The few who do not are likely the one's you'll see talked about in the negative posts here.

Your seeming desire to treat the members here with condescension; implying that you have superior training and superior skills to them, has no bearing on this issue and does nothing to add credibility to your statements. The fact is, you have no idea how much these folks have trained, who they have trained with, or what real situations they have found themselves in and how they've reacted. If you really came here to learn more, then you might start by being less confrontational and more open to viewpoints other than your own.

amen

KRM59 · Jul 20, 2010

Waveceptor

i stay relatively quiet here and just absorb things. i respect your so called training, you may or may not have the training you said. thats something only you know. if you do i am impressed and give you Kodos, Just remember some of us older fellows have a fair bit of training also we just don't go around telling everyone the places we have had sand,or how many rounds we have placed on target.
thats something between us and our maker.

Richieg150 · Jul 20, 2010

WAVECEPTOR:We do have the right to carry a firearm,as the previous post points out,openly.You just need a permission slip--CCW to conceal it.How does carrying my weapon openly not respecting the public???The reason I carry openly is so I WONT have to use my weapon....its a proven crime deterent.I carry my weapon to protect my family,period.I can see why you would be detained pulling down on someone getting mugged,that kinda make you a vigilantie,out to save the sheeple.Those out there getting mugged,have the same rights I do,and its their fault if they choose to ignore them,and become targets.......but at least they are respecting the public,by NOT carrying.

Waveceptor · Jul 21, 2010

Richieg150 said:
WAVECEPTOR:We do have the right to carry a firearm,as the previous post points out,openly.You just need a permission slip--CCW to conceal it.How does carrying my weapon openly not respecting the public???The reason I carry openly is so I WONT have to use my weapon....its a proven crime deterent.I carry my weapon to protect my family,period.I can see why you would be detained pulling down on someone getting mugged,that kinda make you a vigilantie,out to save the sheeple.Those out there getting mugged,have the same rights I do,and its their fault if they choose to ignore them,and become targets.......but at least they are respecting the public,by NOT carrying.

I don't think my post was about crying. At any rate. So what you are saying here is that you carry it for show, but don't intend on using it. If that be the case why not just carry a water pistol. Carrying it with the reason as not to use it i rediculous. the only reason for carrying a gun is so that if the situation arrises you can use it. If there is no intention to use then you are just trying to get looks. walking around with a piece is not protection. It's acting. The visual of a weapon as a deterant only stops little 15 year old trying to boost a car. It would stop some MS13, Latino Kings who just wanna shoot a guy. Although other replies to my posts were informative, yours was an embarrassment to other OCers.

I hope that none of you feel this way. Because if you do you are already a victim even though you are trying not to be.

Marc · Jul 21, 2010

Now here i have to agree with Waveceptor, albeit on a case by case basis. Now if i seen someone getting mugged i personally am not cold and callous enuff to say its their fault for not having a gun. I would have to draw down on them and i would probably kill them as state law provides that you can use deadly force upon witnessing a felony which puts urself or someone elses life at jeopardy. And do not try to argue that point with me because when i was employed as a Security Officer i signed a form saying that i understood tat particular statute and my brther also confirmed that it was true and he is POST certified. I dont post laws that i cant prove so take it as truth. But i guess i can also see where some people would be too sared to pull their gun to protect a stranger. To me that says coward.

cshoff · Jul 21, 2010

Marc said:
Now here i have to agree with Waveceptor, albeit on a case by case basis. Now if i seen someone getting mugged i personally am not cold and callous enuff to say its their fault for not having a gun. I would have to draw down on them and i would probably kill them as state law provides that you can use deadly force upon witnessing a felony which puts urself or someone elses life at jeopardy. And do not try to argue that point with me because when i was employed as a Security Officer i signed a form saying that i understood tat particular statute and my brther also confirmed that it was true and he is POST certified. I dont post laws that i cant prove so take it as truth. But i guess i can also see where some people would be too sared to pull their gun to protect a stranger. To me that says coward.

There are a number of reasons why it may not be a good idea to interject yourself and your use of deadly force into a situation that you were not a party to. Before you jump in as a third party and start firing your gun, you have to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you have justification under RSMO Chapter 563, which is very hard to do when you just happen to stumble upon a incident that involves people you've never met or seen before. If you are wrong, you won't have the protections afforded by RSMO 563.031 and 563.074, and you can be prosecuted for any number of criminal violations. Refusing to place yourself and/or your family into a compromised position by getting involved in a incident of which you do not know all of the facts, is not the sign of a coward, but rather the sign of responsibility.

In some cases, it's better to take cover, call the police, and be a good witness.

peterarthur · Jul 21, 2010

Waveceptor said:
I have issues with guys, and gals for that matter, OCing just to ge a rise out of others. This is not the reason for OC. It certainly does not help the cause of trying to keep it legal. For those who have some beef with Police, you need to get over that or stay home. Police Officers could be our biggest advicates or our worst nightmare. Remember that next time you wanna pick a boosting battle with one. I personally contact a manager or security when I walk into places and let them know. (Information is how you don't get in trouble.) I also only go into places in my town. That way I don't cause a big disturbance.

Also one more thing to remember. Even though OP is not illegal, causing civil unrest is. So don't think taht you cannot get arrersted walking around showboating your hawgleg. You cause a peace disturbance, you goto jail for peace disturbance. Also you have no control over other people and when they are being disturbed. You won't have a leg to stand on if someone is in fear because of your gun.

Speaking from experience.

They have spellchecker built into this forum BTW... Just saying...

Look up the LAW. People being upset by a legal activity (like OC) does not EQUAL peace disturbance. Are you sure you are not an LEO?? Deputy Underwear Model from Walmart, is that you???

peterarthur · Jul 21, 2010

Waveceptor said:
No I haven't been formally charged with anything, but I also only shop in placed that I have been in before. I don't shop outside my home town 95% of the time. I also respect the public enough to carry concealed if I am going someplace that does not know me personally. I prefer to no draw attention to myself. I have on the other hand been OCing when a guy tried to mug a person close by. When I drew down on the individual, the public went nuts and yes I was detained for several hours because of it. I prefer anonymity now. So when something like that does happen My CCW is more well recieved since is does show that I have taken at least some courses with firearms and know at least a little about them. Some guy walking down the street with a G17 strapped to a thigh holster strutting his big stuff is not what the community would consider helpful or peacekeeping. It is intimidating. So yes a Judge can and will up hold Peace Disturbance, or civil disorder. Or even in rear occasions even Assault, By placing a person in fear of harm.

I carry a firearm with me everyday. sometimes OC sometimes CCW. I plan my every and entire day around carrying a weapon. I have been carrying a firearm since I was 21 years old. As taught by my father. I practice with my primary firearm 3 to 5 times a week. I have a 24hour range that I can use for accuracy. I also do practically drills for real world "what if" senarios. I probally have more firearms training than most of you outside of the active military who are on this forum. I joined this Forum to learn more about the relationships with LEOs and I hope to get most of you to see why LEOs are our biggest aid or worst enemy. I like I posting. There is in fact no law giving the right to openly carry. There just is not a law saying that you cannot. That is something that we all need to remember when trying to make a mockery of LEOs.

Smells fishy to me... sorry, no offense but when and where did this "mugging" occur that you prevented?

Spell check... just a friendly reminder

peterarthur · Jul 21, 2010

kenneth meier said:
Just wanted to add what some already knew, but i had to E-mail Walmart myself to see first hand here is the jist of it.............

my e-mail to them...
Greetings,i am interested in Walmarts Corporate polocy on the legal open carry of a fire arm of a customer in there stores in a state where open carry is legal without a permit ?i was under the understanding that Walmart co-operates and abides by the laws of the states there stores operate in. and being in a state where open carry of a fire arm is legal without a permit, that Walmart allows such carry. I would be greatful for the correct information.

thier reply.....
Thank you for your message.

Dear Kenneth Meier,

There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally permitted by their state to carry the handgun.

As a private property owner, Walmart has the authority to ask customers to remove their handgun or leave the store on a case-by-case basis if customers or Walmart associates express concerns about the handgun.

Sincerely,
Walmart Customer Care

For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email.

Looks they copy and paste the contents of those emails... LOL... thanks for the affirmation

peterarthur · Jul 21, 2010

cshoff said:
There are a number of reasons why it may not be a good idea to interject yourself and your use of deadly force into a situation that you were not a party to. Before you jump in as a third party and start firing your gun, you have to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you have justification under RSMO Chapter 563, which is very hard to do when you just happen to stumble upon a incident that involves people you've never met or seen before. If you are wrong, you won't have the protections afforded by RSMO 563.031 and 563.074, and you can be prosecuted for any number of criminal violations. Refusing to place yourself and/or your family into a compromised position by getting involved in a incident of which you do not know all of the facts, is not the sign of a coward, but rather the sign of responsibility.

In some cases, it's better to take cover, call the police, and be a good witness.

Good call, sir. Lethal Force CAN be justified but there is a strict measurement and you could be subject to criminal AND civil penalties if you are wrong (and even if you are RIGHT). Everyone who carries should watch training videos from police on what constitutes legal use of deadly force. There are many levels of charges you can face, even when you act legally. And you should scenario as many ways as you can so that you can make decisions before being in that situation. Would you ever shoot a 10 year old girl? What if she shot your son and was still pointing the weapon at someone? Would you ever shoot your spouse? These decisions must be thought out ahead of time to save time in a crisis. Get trained.

Richieg150 · Jul 21, 2010

WAVECEPTOR,Let me make this simpler for you to understand,if I can.I didnt say I carried open and wouldnt use my weapon,I said I would use it to ptotect myself or my family.When thugs are out committing crime they want easy prey,not a gun fight.Now,you go ahead,conceal your weapon,and maybe they will try and mug you ,and then you can draw down on them,maybe even get to shoot one.I would rather have one see my weapon,pass me by for a easier prey,but make no mistake,yes I practice,yes I'm accurate,and yes I wont hesitate to use my weapon if needed.

wrightme · Jul 22, 2010

peterarthur said:
I took the email that I printed out and went to Walmart again. I spoke with 2 great associates named Bobbie (female) and Jake. I gave Jake the email and he called his manager, Collin. Collin said he had no problem with the OC and asked Jake to post a copy of the email up in the safety response area of the company bulletin so that employees and LEO's would know the CORPORATE policy regarding weapons. The only roadblock left is that it only takes an employee or customer complaint to get you kicked OUT, but that does not prevent you from returning... I seriously doubt we will see many customer complaints and if they kick me out for employee complaints, I will contact management and let them know they lost my business... but I OC'd right after I talked to Jake and 2 LEO's, one in uniform and one in civvies walked past me with barely a glance.

The same is true if you are NOT carrying a firearm......

Stopped at Raytown Walmart finally

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