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Thread: Detainment

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    So you encounter a LEO. You began to get questioned in a rather negative tone. You ask if you are being detained. You don't get a yes or no. Instead, you're question is outright ignored, or your question is answered by a question such as "so you don't want to be cooperative?" or "I'll take you to jail if you want to go that route.", etc.

    How could that be lawful? If you had a voice recorder and had record, would you have some sort of legal standing?

    It has not happened to me, but from reading these threads, watching the videos and listening to the recordings, it seems to me that this sort of thing happens a lot.

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    Mo wrote:
    So you encounter a LEO. You began to get questioned in a rather negative tone. You ask if you are being detained. You don't get a yes or no. Instead, you're question is outright ignored, or your question is answered by a question such as "so you don't want to be cooperative?" or "I'll take you to jail if you want to go that route.", etc.

    How could that be lawful? If you had a voice recorder and had record, would you have some sort of legal standing?

    It has not happened to me, but from reading these threads, watching the videos and listening to the recordings, it seems to me that this sort of thing happens a lot.
    In the only experience I have with detainment for OC, my question, "Am I free to go?" was met with a simple no. My question, "Am I being detained?" earned a yes. And the why was "for investigation."

    Forthright. Wrong, but forthright.

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    It's easy enough to force the issue. If you don't get a definitive "yes" or "no" then turn on your heel and walk away. If the officer wants to play the detainment game he'll let you know soon enough.

    At that point, when he says you're being detained for "investigation" just point out that you are quite interested in the results of his investigation and you'll stand there quietly until he's finished.

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    gutshot wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Mo wrote:
    So you encounter a LEO. You began to get questioned in a rather negative tone. You ask if you are being detained. You don't get a yes or no. Instead, you're question is outright ignored, or your question is answered by a question such as "so you don't want to be cooperative?" or "I'll take you to jail if you want to go that route.", etc.

    How could that be lawful? If you had a voice recorder and had record, would you have some sort of legal standing?

    It has not happened to me, but from reading these threads, watching the videos and listening to the recordings, it seems to me that this sort of thing happens a lot.
    In the only experience I have with detainment for OC, my question, "Am I free to go?" was met with a simple no. My question, "Am I being detained?" earned a yes. And the why was "for investigation."

    Forthright. Wrong, but forthright.
    Yes. The next question should be "Investigation of what crime?".
    The answer I got was, "That's what I am investigating." Yeah, I know, unlawful. However, good things came from how I handled it, so I like the way I handled it.

    For details, see "Holy ****" in Alabama.

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    Mo wrote:
    SNIP So you encounter a LEO...
    The answer lies earlier in the sequence.

    I am not a lawyer.

    Your main goal is to protect your legal position. Winning a war of words with a cop is not even on the radar. Getting smart with a cop, trying to dominate a conversation with a cop, or playing tricky word games with a cop can all result in trouble. The same goes for trying to prevent a violation of your rights. The cop has almost all physical force and legal advantages on his side.

    SunTzu and other tacticians all say to never fight on the ground of the enemy's choosing. Never let him draw you into an engagement. Odds are great that he has already arranged all the advantages for himself and will defeat you. Same advice can be applied to cops during stops.

    Back to the main goal--protecting your legal position. Protecting your legal positiontranslates into invoking your rights. Politely. Verbally.While complying with orders.

    Although thereare some reasonable differences among OCers, I suggest immediately, politely, and verbally only, refusing consent to having an encounter withthe cop. Other OCers move straight to asking if detained. I prefer refusing consent to an encounter because it removes any question that the encounter is consensual. Once I politely,verbally, refuse consent, the cop can avoid answering about whether I am detained all day long. My refusal has established that it is not a consensual encounter, not his refusal to answer.If he asks me even one more question, or continues to block my path, etc.there is no question whether I am being detained. His continuation of the encounter past my refused consent shouts loud and clear that I am being detained. It is a minor point, though. A mere tactic. Going straight to askingif detained, or free to go can work just as well.

    Thenext point is that no matter what the cop says or does, just keep politely, verballyexercising your rights while complying with orders. Don't try to sort out whether what he is doing is legal. Save that for later.

    Also, there are court cases that list things you can use to determine whether a seizure (detention) is occurring, even if the cop does not answer your questions. One is US vs Mendenahall:

    We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. See Terry v. Ohio, supra at 19, n. 16; Dunaway v. 442 U.S. 200, 207, and n. 6; 3 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure 53-55 (1978). In the absence of some such evidence, otherwise inoffensive contact between a member of the public and the police cannot, as a matter of law, amount to a seizure of that person.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Even if he says yes and has no reasonable articulable suspicion to back up a detention, unless something happens (illegal gun seizure, extraordinarily long detention, etc...) it is apparently not a sufficiently profitable or worthwhile prospect for lawyers. (Personal experience)
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    The most important thing is to REMAIN SILENT.

    http://javelinpress.com/you_and_the_police.html

    ABOUT YOU AND THE POLICE!
    Until now, the average American has lacked a simple, up-to-date summary of constitutional law regarding confrontations with the police. More and more peaceable, law-abiding folks are being caught up in the widening police dragnet of roadblocks, checkpoints, searches, intrusive questioning and civil forfeitures. Americans have long needed a clear explanation of exactly where our rights end and executive power begins, especially if you travel or carry a gun.
    More than a legal handbook, You & The Police! explains precisely how to win police confrontations using: sample dialogue, "what-if" scenarios, and practical tips. Armed with this book, you will know just how to avoid traffic tickets, bogus searches, roadside delays, and general harassment. Probably 90% of erroneous civil forfeitures from honest folks could have been avoided had they known about this book.There is no reason for us to be bluffed or intimidated by the police any longer.
    Updated for 2009! This new 2009 edition is a greatly revised, revamped, and expanded version since the revision of 2005. It contains some of Boston's thoughts on the 2008 Heller decision, plus many new Supreme Court cases since 2005.
    Reviewed by several practicing attorneys, you can rely upon the quality information and ideas inside. This is still the only book of its kind, and a must read for every American in this increasingly regulatory age.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Remember folks, you have the RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.

    However, in light of recent SCOTUS rulings, you have to break that silence to exercise the right. So you now need to tell a cop that you with to invoke you rright to remain silent in order to be silent legally, and not risk a "disorderly" or "noncooperation" rap...

    Yeah, now THAT makes sense...

    Many OCers and other 2A activists are VERY well-educated when it somes to carry law, firearms law in general, the legal intricacies of detainment/interrogation, and their constitutional rights. Because of this knowledge, they often feel they can "talk their way out" of a police encounter.

    NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!

    You have the RIGHT to remain silent.

    You may not have the DESIRE or even the emotional ABILITY to remain silent in a wrongful detainment, or when being harassed unlawfully by an LEO, but you need to remember that remaining silent is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

    And it is a right that is every bit as important to EXERCISE as your 2A rights--perhaps even more so.

    By talking to an LEO, you will ONLY give them more rope with which to bind you up.

    SHUT UP, and walk away if you are not being detained.

    If you are being detained, SHUT UP, right after you tell them you wish to invoke your right to remain silent.

    Or just tell them that you need a lawyer present to discuss anything more than your name and address. The suggestion that you are willing and able to "lawyer up" right then and there will shut a LOT of this silliness down toot suite...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I keep my lawyer's phone number on my cell but am thinking about getting an emergency number setup somehow for the far more likely after-hours events.

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    detainment
    Shouldn't it be "detention"?
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    detainment
    Shouldn't it be "detention"?
    I tried that avenue. Didn't work. It seems "detainment" is a valid form of the verb detain. Worse, I think someone even scrounged up a statute or opinion that used it.

    I say, "Death to 'Detainment'!" Until lots more say it, I fear we are stuck with its occasional usage.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Remember folks, you have the RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.

    However, in light of recent SCOTUS rulings, you have to break that silence to exercise the right. So you now need to tell a cop that you with to invoke you rright to remain silent in order to be silent legally, and not risk a "disorderly" or "noncooperation" rap...

    Yeah, now THAT makes sense...

    Many OCers and other 2A activists are VERY well-educated when it somes to carry law, firearms law in general, the legal intricacies of detainment/interrogation, and their constitutional rights. Because of this knowledge, they often feel they can "talk their way out" of a police encounter.

    NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!

    You have the RIGHT to remain silent.

    You may not have the DESIRE or even the emotional ABILITY to remain silent in a wrongful detainment, or when being harassed unlawfully by an LEO, but you need to remember that remaining silent is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

    And it is a right that is every bit as important to EXERCISE as your 2A rights--perhaps even more so.

    By talking to an LEO, you will ONLY give them more rope with which to bind you up.

    SHUT UP, and walk away if you are not being detained.

    If you are being detained, SHUT UP, right after you tell them you wish to invoke your right to remain silent.

    Or just tell them that you need a lawyer present to discuss anything more than your name and address. The suggestion that you are willing and able to "lawyer up" right then and there will shut a LOT of this silliness down toot suite...
    You are spot on. There is a very good book that I often recommend to people. It is called, "You & The Police" by Boston T. Party. A short book and a concise and quick read, it is full of useful information. His premise is that the police are looking for "bodies" and you are just one of those to them. He also states that as much as we may want to believe this, in reality the police are not your friends. These two factors alone are enough reason to remain silent.

    To back up your statements here, I offer these two videos. Excellent information contained within and in particular, the first one. Pay close attention to this lawyer (he talks fast) and drink in what he has to say.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQ...eature=related



    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    detainment
    Shouldn't it be "detention"?
    I have a retainment holster.

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    eye95 wrote:
    Mo wrote:
    So you encounter a LEO. You began to get questioned in a rather negative tone. You ask if you are being detained. You don't get a yes or no. Instead, you're question is outright ignored, or your question is answered by a question such as "so you don't want to be cooperative?" or "I'll take you to jail if you want to go that route.", etc.

    How could that be lawful? If you had a voice recorder and had record, would you have some sort of legal standing?

    It has not happened to me, but from reading these threads, watching the videos and listening to the recordings, it seems to me that this sort of thing happens a lot.
    In the only experience I have with detainment for OC, my question, "Am I free to go?" was met with a simple no. My question, "Am I being detained?" earned a yes. And the why was "for investigation."

    Forthright. Wrong, but forthright.
    I have been told by a couple of people on here that if the answer is yes to being detained to ask "For suspicion of what crime am I being detained?" They have to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) in order to detain you. If they don't, the detainment is illegal. I hope you had a voice recorder with you and used it.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Ruby wrote:
    SNIP I have been told by a couple of people on here that if the answer is yes to being detained to ask "For suspicion of what crime am I being detained?" They have to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) in order to detain you. If they don't, the detainment is illegal. I hope you had a voice recorder with you and used it.
    Did the people who told you this also tell you what to do after you receive an answer?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Ruby wrote:
    SNIP I have been told by a couple of people on here that if the answer is yes to being detained to ask "For suspicion of what crime am I being detained?" They have to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) in order to detain you. If they don't, the detainment is illegal. I hope you had a voice recorder with you and used it.
    Did the people who told you this also tell you what to do after you receive an answer?
    I was told to ask for a supervisor and to shut up after that.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Ruby wrote:
    I was told to ask for a supervisor and to shut up after that.
    Makes sense.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Oh, I have LOTS of experience with this one.

    I've never had a forthright answer from any question I asked of an officer. Not even "How's it going?"

    Most often, they know they're breaking the law and aren't stupid enough to admit to it, like they intimidate many others into doing. A.k.a., they don't fall for the same trick that they pull.

    I've taken to the "If there is a crime or suspicion of one, I can't help you if you don't let me know. [LEO has mumbly excuses/BS] As I can be of no further use to you, have a nice day." and step away. If they grab you, hey hey, they cannot deny that you are being detained. They cannot say that you resisted or tried to escape, because they never said they were detaining you. You better have a recording, because they WILL lie.

    It is best not to stop. Just keep on walking. Once you stop, they don't have to block your path or grab you to forcibly stop you. They love that one, because they don't believe repeatedly blocking you from traveling as you see fit is a seizure, but it is. If they 'just want to talk' with you, tell them they'll have to keep up, you have places to be. If they grab you and force you to stop, bingo.... Some of them will even trip you, and pretend to 'catch' you or 'help you up' as an excuse to grab you or stop you. They taught this in the Academy I attended. They'll add on that you tripped or fell for no reason, and they 'suspect that you are intoxicated,' etc... Watch for it. Some will flat out body check you, then claim you did it to them. Have a recording, video is best.

    Even if you don't have anywhere to be, start walking, be in motion when a cop engages you. Walk to nowhere in particular. It doesn't matter. You will either 1) be leaving him/her behind and not have to talk to them (not talking to them at all is the best policy) or 2) they will forcibly detain you and will not be able to argue the point.

    You cannot 'flee' or 'evade' an officer by walking calmly, and you would have to be detained, or there be a reason why you should be, for that to apply anyway. If they even try to make that argument, they only bury themselves by needing PC/RAS to support it. Again, they'll lie if they're the filthy sort. Have a recording. Meaning, you cannot evade unless there is grounds for detention/arrest. Detention/arrest requires PC/RAS.

    "The Perp evaded me, the Noble Officer, when he tried to walk away!"
    "And what was your RAS/PC for the detention?"
    "Uhhh..... He had a gun?"
    "Sorry, not good enough."

    Asking them puts the ball in their court, and they can deflect it by simply refusing to answer. You're asking if it's ok to leave, while not leaving. You're nearly detaining yourself if you ask.

    Don't give them the control of the situation they want by asking. If they're going to cross that line, don't let it be a grey area. A decent cop will have no choice but to leave you alone, the filth will grab you and there is no arguing that you were free to go once they do. But, as stated above, the filth will also lie. So you better have a recording, video is best.

    Also, if there really is a reason for the stop, such as you match the description of a bank robber from 15 minutes ago; he's gonna grab you no mater what. Most likely you won't be asked... This is probable cause, and justified. You haven't in any way inhibited the officer's ability to do so with any of the above.

    They are NOT your friend, and they never want to 'just talk.' They are the paid goons of the most corrupt organized crime syndicate on earth. Some of them really are good people, who have legitimate positive interests. I say this only because there are stories told here of some far off land where cops aren't scum. Remember what they're paid to do; screw up your life to justify the existence of the sham called the criminal justice system. They need to keep roping 'bad guys' to say 'wow, we really need to raise taxes some more, look at all these inmates we have!' If a LEO is talking to you, it's because YOU'RE NEXT, and he's looking for any excuse. Walking away, not stopping, is the best way to assure you won't have a conversation he can distort or misrepresent. If he has a legitimate reason to stop you, rest assured, he will. Don't resist. If he hasn't any reason, he just screwed himself.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    ixtow wrote:
    Oh, I have LOTS of experience with this one.

    I've never had a forthright answer from any question I asked of an officer. Not even "How's it going?"

    Most often, they know they're breaking the law and aren't stupid enough to admit to it, like they intimidate many others into doing. A.k.a., they don't fall for the same trick that they pull.

    I've taken to the "If there is a crime or suspicion of one, I can't help you if you don't let me know. [LEO has mumbly excuses/BS] As I can be of no further use to you, have a nice day." and step away. If they grab you, hey hey, they cannot deny that you are being detained. They cannot say that you resisted or tried to escape, because they never said they were detaining you. You better have a recording, because they WILL lie.

    It is best not to stop. Just keep on walking. Once you stop, they don't have to block your path or grab you to forcibly stop you. They love that one, because they don't believe repeatedly blocking you from traveling as you see fit is a seizure, but it is. If they 'just want to talk' with you, tell them they'll have to keep up, you have places to be. If they grab you and force you to stop, bingo.... Some of them will even trip you, and pretend to 'catch' you or 'help you up' as an excuse to grab you or stop you. They taught this in the Academy I attended. They'll add on that you tripped or fell for no reason, and they 'suspect that you are intoxicated,' etc... Watch for it. Some will flat out body check you, then claim you did it to them. Have a recording, video is best.

    Even if you don't have anywhere to be, start walking, be in motion when a cop engages you. Walk to nowhere in particular. It doesn't matter. You will either 1) be leaving him/her behind and not have to talk to them (not talking to them at all is the best policy) or 2) they will forcibly detain you and will not be able to argue the point.

    You cannot 'flee' or 'evade' an officer by walking calmly, and you would have to be detained, or there be a reason why you should be, for that to apply anyway. If they even try to make that argument, they only bury themselves by needing PC/RAS to support it. Again, they'll lie if they're the filthy sort. Have a recording. Meaning, you cannot evade unless there is grounds for detention/arrest. Detention/arrest requires PC/RAS.

    "The Perp evaded me, the Noble Officer, when he tried to walk away!"
    "And what was your RAS/PC for the detention?"
    "Uhhh..... He had a gun?"
    "Sorry, not good enough."

    Asking them puts the ball in their court, and they can deflect it by simply refusing to answer. You're asking if it's ok to leave, while not leaving. You're nearly detaining yourself if you ask.

    Don't give them the control of the situation they want by asking. If they're going to cross that line, don't let it be a grey area. A decent cop will have no choice but to leave you alone, the filth will grab you and there is no arguing that you were free to go once they do. But, as stated above, the filth will also lie. So you better have a recording, video is best.

    Also, if there really is a reason for the stop, such as you match the description of a bank robber from 15 minutes ago; he's gonna grab you no mater what. Most likely you won't be asked... This is probable cause, and justified. You haven't in any way inhibited the officer's ability to do so with any of the above.

    They are NOT your friend, and they never want to 'just talk.' They are the paid goons of the most corrupt organized crime syndicate on earth. Some of them really are good people, who have legitimate positive interests. I say this only because there are stories told here of some far off land where cops aren't scum. Remember what they're paid to do; screw up your life to justify the existence of the sham called the criminal justice system. They need to keep roping 'bad guys' to say 'wow, we really need to raise taxes some more, look at all these inmates we have!' If a LEO is talking to you, it's because YOU'RE NEXT, and he's looking for any excuse. Walking away, not stopping, is the best way to assure you won't have a conversation he can distort or misrepresent. If he has a legitimate reason to stop you, rest assured, he will. Don't resist. If he hasn't any reason, he just screwed himself.
    Wow, I am really impressed. First you bash women and call them communists on the thread about the 4 women who were shot in the restuarant, now you are on here bashing LEO's. I am new to the board, but even I know that this is not allowed. I am going to talk to a friend and see how I can get in touch with the moderators. You are a Founder's Club member, you of all people should know better.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Ruby wrote:
    Wow, I am really impressed. First you bash women
    I did no such thing and you know it. Your statement is a bald-faced lie.

    Ruby wrote:
    now you are on here bashing LEO's.
    I'm not bashing LEOs. Everyone here has seen plenty of videos of cops lying like mad and getting caught.

    I have a LOT of first hand experience with it. The cops in my area are all meth dealers.

    You know not of what you speak.

    I was not put here to impress you, nor have I any desire to.

    I'm not going to stop speaking the truth just because you don't like it.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  21. #21
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    Ixtow,

    Some of your comments in the post to which Ruby objected are pretty generalized.

    I read through your post with an eye to how it would not be cop bashing. Early in your post one can take the context that you are only talking about the particular cops who get out of line. However, further along you get into a few general anti-cop comments.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Ixtow,

    Some of your comments in the post to which Ruby objected are pretty generalized.

    I read through your post with an eye to how it would not be cop bashing. Early in your post one can take the context that you are only talking about the particular cops who get out of line. However, further along you get into a few general anti-cop comments.
    No, as I get further along, it is clear that the commentary applies to filth cops.

    I don't have to qualify it every single damn time. The point was made to which sort I am referring.

    Why is it that we all know damn well there are plenty of dirty cops out there, but I have to tiptoe around the matter? The kind you need this advice for are the dirty kind, duh. The topic itself already defines it. I went and qualified it several times, and still I'm accused of cop bashing... Do you need to have a recorder for when the honest ones DON'T do anything wrong? Do you have to assert your rights with a cop who isn't trying to violate them?

    It's just plain juvenile to pretend the subject wasn't clarified. The topic of how to handle that kind of cop already defines that we're talking about that kind of cop! Quit pretending it doesn't as an excuse to berate a person for nonexistent 'cop bashing.'

    Go prove how predatory and aggressive you can be with someone who won't let it slide. You know I don't back down when someone pulls dishonest bullsh!t like that.

    The whole topic of this thread is, in general, how to handle a dirty cop. There is absolutely no excuse for pretending it isn't. I don't have to define that point in every sentence, when the OP has already narrowed the frame of the discussion to dirty cops.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  23. #23
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    ixtow wrote:
    Ruby wrote:
    Wow, I am really impressed. First you bash women
    I did no such thing and you know it. Your statement is a bald-faced lie.

    Ruby wrote:
    now you are on here bashing LEO's.
    I'm not bashing LEOs. Everyone here has seen plenty of videos of cops lying like mad and getting caught.

    I have a LOT of first hand experience with it. The cops in my area are all meth dealers.

    You know not of what you speak.

    I was not put here to impress you, nor have I any desire to.

    I'm not going to stop speaking the truth just because you don't like it.
    You DID bash women. You said and I quote "Most women are communists." If that isn't bashing I don't know what is. And calling LEO's "scum" isn't bashing? Is there anyone that you don't hate? You may be speaking YOUR truth, but you don't speak for everyone on this forum, you are only one person. I said that I was impressed in a sarcastic manner, not as a compliment. Get over yourself.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
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    ixtow wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Ixtow,

    Some of your comments in the post to which Ruby objected are pretty generalized.

    I read through your post with an eye to how it would not be cop bashing. Early in your post one can take the context that you are only talking about the particular cops who get out of line. However, further along you get into a few general anti-cop comments.
    SNIP No, as I get further along, it is clear that the commentary applies to filth cops.
    Uh huh. Suuuuuuuuure.

    Ixtow wrote:

    They are the paid goons of the most corrupt organized crime syndicate on earth. Some of them really are good people, who have legitimate positive interests. I say this only because there are stories told here of some far off land where cops aren't scum. Remember what they're paid to do; screw up your life to justify the existence of the sham called the criminal justice system.

    Whatever yousay, Ixtow.Was just trying to help you out.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    gutshot wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    Mo wrote:
    So you encounter a LEO. You began to get questioned in a rather negative tone. You ask if you are being detained. You don't get a yes or no. Instead, you're question is outright ignored, or your question is answered by a question such as "so you don't want to be cooperative?" or "I'll take you to jail if you want to go that route.", etc.

    How could that be lawful? If you had a voice recorder and had record, would you have some sort of legal standing?

    It has not happened to me, but from reading these threads, watching the videos and listening to the recordings, it seems to me that this sort of thing happens a lot.
    In the only experience I have with detainment for OC, my question, "Am I free to go?" was met with a simple no. My question, "Am I being detained?" earned a yes. And the why was "for investigation."

    Forthright. Wrong, but forthright.
    Yes. The next question should be "Investigation of what crime?". If you can't get an answer to whether you are detained or not just slowly start to walk away. You'll soon know if you're detained or not.
    This is REALLY BAD ADVICE. Once you have been told your being detained, your only options for reparation are AFTER the contact has ended.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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