OC at UVA - need knowledge please

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Today I went to an appointment at the UVA medical center. I have never been therebefore. I was "asked" to leave as I was in violation of UVA "policy" in regards to firearms possession on univ. grounds, while OCing.



I would appreciate any assistance in learning about this apparent "violation", as I was not of the opinion that as a non-student/faculty/employee I had any reason to need to be concerned about a "school policy."



I have been loosely following the GMU case, and as I recall it may be a similar set of circumstances.



VCDL and and an atty, advice seems to indicate that this is a matter that is currently unresolved. That is UVA, and VCU feel that they have legal standing to prohibit OC and it has not been tested/resolved ina courtroom.




I will share more details laterperhaps, but I want to get some help with the applicable legal basis as it pertains to this, before getting muddied up with specifics. I will say that I was not able to see my physician to receive medical treatment, and I was given a trespass warning. Apparently, I did not comply fast enough for the Director of Security. (insert don't taze me bro joke)


From the UVA police website:
BACK TO TOP

Visitors:
The possession, storage or use of any firearm, weapon, ammunition, or explosives within any University facility by anyone, except a law enforcement officer, without the prior written permission of the University’s Chief of Police or his designee is prohibited.




I was unaware of this, there was no posted signage to this effect, and I do not believe that it follows state law. Public place, public university, legal behavior. This is not the first time I have carried on the grounds, and I did not know that this was even a policy that was being applied to non-students/faculty/employees.

It states "within any University facility" which seems to indicate that being in a building, vs. open air is a significant difference. Odd.




From the UVA police website:


The University, as with any other public or private entity, cannot assure or guarantee a crime free living or working environment. Accordingly, it is the responsibility of members of the University community to act in a security conscious manner and to avoid actions which jeopardize their security as well as the security of others. Members of the faculty, staff, and student body should report all crimes, hazards, emergencies, or dangerous situations to the Police Department.

I'll be damned, but I thought my 3 year old baby girl and I were doing exactly that! I attempted to provided us "assurances" of "crime free living." I have many years of research, licensing, training, practice and experience that shows a personal firearm is the most effective form of "acting in a security conscious manner."

My firearm of choice that day was actually identical to the one I was provided by the federal government to carry in the cockpit of airliners back in the good old days. I guess I really am missing the point here?

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Universities, and the academics who run them, are the epicenters of left-wing elitism and as such it isn't surprising they think they can negate any laws they feel are unenlightened and not "progressive." Universities make up their own rules about almost everything as if they were soveriegn states and they are shocked when outside visitors to their secluded mini-universe don't comply with their nanny-brained control fantasies.

UVA is public property and is part of the Commonwealth of Virginia. The professorate, administration and population of Charlottesville at large may wish to fantasize that it is in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts but ultimately they are mistaken.

It is my understanding that GMU has a regulation in the state administrative code banning weapons and the issue currently being decided in court is whether they can legally make such a regulation. UVA may have its own rules on guns but to my knowledge they are not part of the state code.

Kicking you out was illegal in my opinion, but you should consult an attorney. If you wanted to challenge UVA you probably should have had 1 or more witnesses accompany you to your appointment with audio recording at least, to prove you didn't threaten anyone, and then refused to leave. If you had been arrested then you would have had a case. Since you left voluntarily, nobody really violated your rights even though what they told you was wrong.

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The fact is UVA can have any policy they want to, until and unless a court or the General Assembly tells them otherwise. This includes policies that actually do violate you Constitutional rights (the one in question, IMO, does not).

Had you refused to leave the UVA cops could have charged you with a misdemeanor. You would go to trial in the General District Court, where there would be no trial transcript or other documentation unless you paid to have it done. They you could appeal it through the Circuit Court on up in steps to SCOTUS if you wanted to and could afford the costs.

None of this should be construed as supporting the UVA policy. It is a call to find a member of the General Assembly who will introduce a bill to amend 15.2-915 to include state agencies, boards, commissions and other entities.

stay safe.

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Still waiting for someone to show me where in the Virginia code it says campus carry is illegal, or that school policy is enforceable as law.

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t33j wrote:

Still waiting for someone to show me where in the Virginia code it says campus carry is illegal, or that school policy is enforceable as law.

Click to expand...

and you'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't and isn't.

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nova wrote:

t33j wrote:

Still waiting for someone to show me where in the Virginia code it says campus carry is illegal, or that school policy is enforceable as law.

Click to expand...

and you'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't and isn't.

Click to expand...

I know.
On a couple of occasions I've spent hours avoiding boredom by clicking next on the Virginia LIS.

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Another bit of double-speak from the UVA police -



"While Charlottesville remains a relatively safe environment, crimes do occur in our community. The best defense is to be prepared and to take responsibility for your own safety and for that of your friends and fellow students."



I chose the most effective means available to myself. It's effectiveness is so agreed upon that teh UVA police utilizes an identical tool (a handgun). Pity, I am but a peon.

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Tweaker wrote:

Another bit of double-speak from the UVA police -



"While Charlottesville remains a relatively safe environment, crimes do occur in our community. The best defense is to be prepared and to take responsibility for your own safety and for that of your friends and fellow students."



I chose the most effective means available to myself. It's effectiveness is so agreed upon that teh UVA police utilizes an identical tool (a handgun). Pity, I am but a peon.

Click to expand...

Well Tweaker, there's an old saying that says something about not being able to fight city hall.

It's not true, you can.

First you need standing. That means you need to be arrested or otherwise abused.

Then you need a lawyer. Another old saying says a lawyer who represents himself, has a fool for a client...I can take that further by saying an activist that represents himself does a lot of damage to us all.

After you find a good lawyer like User....you need money to pay him. Even good lawyers have to eat.

It's all downhill from there.:uhoh:

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skidmark wrote:

The fact is UVA can have any policy they want to, until and unless a court or the General Assembly tells them otherwise. This includes policies that actually do violate you Constitutional rights (the one in question, IMO, does not).

Had you refused to leave the UVA cops could have charged you with a misdemeanor. You would go to trial in the General District Court, where there would be no trial transcript or other documentation unless you paid to have it done. They you could appeal it through the Circuit Court on up in steps to SCOTUS if you wanted to and could afford the costs.

None of this should be construed as supporting the UVA policy. It is a call to find a member of the General Assembly who will introduce a bill to amend 15.2-915 to include state agencies, boards, commissions and other entities.

stay safe.

Click to expand...

I think "all agencies" includes state agencies, but what is my humble opinion, when compared to the Cooch.

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"First you need standing. That means you need to be arrested or otherwise abused.

Then you need a lawyer. "



Yea, I think I know that your two points are correct, and I am attempting to decide what to do.

I don't have the money for a lawyer, so at this point avoiding an arrest is my only option.

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This crap has got to stop. If the money issue went away would you see a good lawyer who is interested in this kind of case? We have at least a couple on the board who could probably provide excellent support. I could probably help pony up some dough for this and I imagine there are others who might be willing as well.

The approximated fees for a case like this would be nice to know so some of us could estimate how hard we'd have to hit the piggy bank.

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I have conferred with two lawyers. No quotes of money, and I did not inquire.



I have no qualms about being a test case, but I have been out of work for nearly 2 years.



My primary reason for leaning against a judicial battle is that I have been advised that the GMU case deals with a similar set of circumstances. If this will be a double tap, this is not worth persueing. If I hear otherwise, or decide otherwise, it should not be difficult to arrange an arrestable offense. At this point, barring any success with an appeal, I will be arrested simply due to my presence on Thomas Jefferson's university.

We all know him as the guy who recommends a gun be a constant companion on all your daily excursions.


In response to an above poster, I certainly did not leave "voluntarily." I was prevented from receiving needed medical care, and still was charged with a "trespass warning." I still don't know what that means and both attys don't either.



The "Director of Security", a Vincent Jones, repeated over and over that I was in violation of "UVA POLICY." I consistently stated that this must be different than being in violation of a LAW, and that I wish to be shown how I am not permitted to continue to carry a firearm on this PUBLIC (state) institution. It was like talking to a recording. Every time another LEO spoke to me (they were all his subordinate) VJ interupted them and refused to allow them to interact with me.



When a UVA associate of mine arrived, in response to my call of assistance, he was also threatened with arrest by Magilla Gorilla (VJ).



At the end of the event, I was informed that I should consider myself fortunate that my 3 year old girl was not taken from me and placed in the custody of child protective services and I was not taken to jail. Thank you, sir! May I have another?

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Do we need to have an OC trash pick up at UVA and say hello to Magilla Gorilla?

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Tweaker, this is in no way an insult. I don't know you or anything about you.

Test case subjects have to be chosen very carefully and the violation done under laboratory conditions.

Unfortunately, we all have to leave the gun in the car at times. I'm afraid this may be one of those times if you want or need medical service there.