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Thread: Carry in school

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    Hi all,

    I am a teacher in a public school in metro Detroit. I have a CPL license. My question is this....Can I leave my loaded or unloaded pistol in my car while I am at work for the day as long as it is in a secured place? Also, Could my school district have any recourse for me doing this (Obviously I have no intention on telling them, but you never know how things are found out)? The school district is a traditional public school district. Thank you all for your comments in advance.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    opencarryteacher wrote:
    Hi all,

    I am a teacher in a public school in metro Detroit. I have a CPL license. My question is this....Can I leave my loaded or unloaded pistol in my car while I am at work for the day as long as it is in a secured place? Also, Could my school district have any recourse for me doing this (Obviously I have no intention on telling them, but you never know how things are found out)? The school district is a traditional public school district. Thank you all for your comments in advance.
    The CPL statute allows conceal carry in parking lots, so you would not be breaking any firearm laws by leaving a secured loaded handgun in your vehicle.

    Ibelieve the school district could ban staff from having firearms while they are on the clock. If you violated the policy they could impose some sort of discipline up to termination. I suspect your employee handbook would have this spelled out.

    In case you were not aware and as anaside it is lawful to open carry a handgun in and on school property if you have a CPL, but then your coworkers and bosses would know you carry.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I would verify that there is no rule against doing so in the employee handbook.

    At that point in the parking lot should be fine as parking lots were exempted from premises.

    Of course I recommend a lock box.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    my advice if you don't want to leave an unattended loaded handgun in your vehicle is to half it up. take the slide, barrel and spring in with you and leave the bottom half and magazine in your vehicle. if i'm not mistaken if a minor gets their hands on your weapon regardless how (theft or misplaced) it is a felony. that's one thing schools have plenty of is minors. reassemble it when you leave. my sig 228 9mm takes 5 seconds. many times ammunition is worded into the law. you are not bringing in a usable handgun or ammo into school. had to do this at my old job. stopped in the circle drive every day after work.

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    link:
    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28lrw...me=mcl-28-425o

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1)
    so to answer your question, legally you can conceal carry/leave in your car a pistol in the parking areas of all the places listed in 28.425o (all the places listed on the back of your cpl) which includes a school.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    I would verify that there is no rule against doing so in the employee handbook.

    At that point in the parking lot should be fine as parking lots were exempted from premises.

    Of course I recommend a lock box.
    My employee handbook says "no firearms...blah, blah, blah, punishment up to termination. But I looked at the Board's Official Personnel Policies and found if an employee is carrying as allowed by state law, there is an exception. My point: check the School Board Policies to be sure...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    I would verify that there is no rule against doing so in the employee handbook.

    At that point in the parking lot should be fine as parking lots were exempted from premises.

    Of course I recommend a lock box.
    My employee handbook says "no firearms...blah, blah, blah, punishment up to termination.* But I looked at the Board's Official Personnel Policies and found if an employee is carrying as allowed by state law, there is an exception.* My point: check the School Board Policies to be sure...
    Good point! I have checked both at my school and found nothing nada.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    IM in the Pontiac School District I have been working with the superintendent and chief of security where employees can have firearms in there vehicle until after work cause they wouldnt want to infringe on gun owners right to self defense.

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    IM in the Pontiac School District I have been working with the superintendent and chief of security where employees can have firearms in there vehicle until after work cause they wouldnt want to infringe on gun owners right to self defense.

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    kryptonian wrote:
    my advice if you don't want to leave an unattended loaded handgun in your vehicle is to half it up. take the slide, barrel and spring in with you and leave the bottom half and magazine in your vehicle. if i'm not mistaken if a minor gets their hands on your weapon regardless how (theft or misplaced) it is a felony. that's one thing schools have plenty of is minors. reassemble it when you leave. my sig 228 9mm takes 5 seconds. many times ammunition is worded into the law. you are not bringing in a usable handgun or ammo into school. had to do this at my old job. stopped in the circle drive every day after work.
    i believe you are mistaken about that, pretty sure you can't be charged with a crime for someone else stealing your property, even if you were negligent.
    i would be EXTREMELY careful about bringing even a non-working piece of a gun into a school, i'm pretty sure that would be worse than leaving the whole working thing loaded in your car.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Before I knew about OC, I carried my slide with me when away from home.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Before I knew about OC, I carried my slide with me when away from home.
    were you going to throw it at someone?
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Maybe in the face of a legislator if I actually needed it.

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    While I'm not a lawyer, I believe that so long as you properly secure your firearm (i.e. in a locked container), if someone steals it, and commits a crime (or shoots himself / herself) you will not be liable ... even if that person is a minor.

    If you negligently store your firearm, and a minor "steals" it, and shoots himself/herself or someone else, you will be liable and can be criminally charged.

    So if you left your gun on the seat (or in the glove compartment) and your car is unlocked, you would be liable if a kid got hold of it and shot someone else even though the kid would have had to illegally "break in" to your car to get at the firearm.

    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    kryptonian wrote:
    my advice if you don't want to leave an unattended loaded handgun in your vehicle is to half it up. take the slide, barrel and spring in with you and leave the bottom half and magazine in your vehicle. if i'm not mistaken if a minor gets their hands on your weapon regardless how (theft or misplaced) it is a felony. that's one thing schools have plenty of is minors. reassemble it when you leave. my sig 228 9mm takes 5 seconds. many times ammunition is worded into the law. you are not bringing in a usable handgun or ammo into school. had to do this at my old job. stopped in the circle drive every day after work.
    i believe you are mistaken about that, pretty sure you can't be charged with a crime for someone else stealing your property, even if you were negligent.
    i would be EXTREMELY careful about bringing even a non-working piece of a gun into a school, i'm pretty sure that would be worse than leaving the whole working thing loaded in your car.

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    CrimDoc wrote:
    While I'm not a lawyer, I believe that so long as you properly secure your firearm (i.e. in a locked container), if someone steals it, and commits a crime (or shoots himself / herself) you will not be liable ... even if that person is a minor.

    If you negligently store your firearm, and a minor "steals" it, and shoots himself/herself or someone else, you will be liable and can be criminally charged. *

    So if you left your gun on the seat (or in the glove compartment) and your car is unlocked, you would be liable if a kid got hold of it and shot someone else even though the kid would have had to illegally "break in" to your car to get at the firearm.

    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    kryptonian wrote:
    my advice if you don't want to leave an unattended loaded handgun in your vehicle is to half it up. take the slide, barrel and spring in with you and leave the bottom half and magazine in your vehicle. if i'm not mistaken if a minor gets their hands on your weapon regardless how (theft or misplaced) it is a felony. that's one thing schools have plenty of is minors. reassemble it when you leave. my sig 228 9mm takes 5 seconds. many times ammunition is worded into the law. you are not bringing in a usable handgun or ammo into school. had to do this at my old job. stopped in the circle drive every day after work.
    i believe you are mistaken about that, pretty sure you can't be charged with a crime for someone else stealing your property, even if you were negligent.
    i would be EXTREMELY careful about bringing even a non-working piece of a gun into a school, i'm pretty sure that would be worse than leaving the whole working thing loaded in your car.
    since neither of us are lawyers, here's the opinion of one(steven dulan i believe):

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq2.asp

    Q: I live in Detroit. Is there any law against keeping my pistol in an inoperable vehicle I own that I keep outside my home? I realize that it may not be smart to keep my gun there, but is it legal? If the gun is stolen and used in a crime, am I liable for damages?
    A: There is no state law against leaving a loaded gun in an inoperable car. There may be a Detroit ordinance against it. If so, it would violate the Michigan firearm preemption law. However, Detroit might try to enforce it against you anyway.

    As to your liability if it is stolen and used in a crime, the normal negligence rule is that you are liable for the foreseeable consequences of your own actions. This is tempered with the rule that you are not liable for someone else’s criminal actions.

    If I fail to teach my young daughter about guns and leave my firearm out, and she accidentally shoots a playmate, I am liable for my negligence in leaving the gun out. However, a thief could break into my house and steal my pistol. I am not liable for the thief’s subsequent criminal acts. You may remember the uproar last year when a child took a pistol and shot a classmate. This led to some proposed legislation to make gun owners liable for any improper use of their guns. None of the bills that would hold a gun owner strictly liable for the illegal use of their gun became law. Without the legislation, there is no liability. What would probably happen is that you would be sued but after spending a year or two in court, you would be found not to be liable. Be careful, I am attempting to cover two semesters of law school into two paragraphs. If you have specific questions, you should consult a lawyer.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    OC in a school with a CPL is legal but how do I explain it when challenged? I plan to OC in my daughters school this fall, and I need to know exactly what tosay when confronted. Waterford schools are quite the burocracy, and are pretty liberal, so I expect to have police involvement, and possibly be arrested.





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    stainless1911,

    I suggest you tell them Michigan Law.

    I, too, am aware that Michigan allows the Open Carry of Pistols in Pistol-Free Zones, provided; that the possessor has a Valid Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    Ironically, Concealed Carry in Pistol-Free Zones, even with a CPL, is hence Illegal.

    I would tell them these exact words, if andwhen confronted by Police:

    Michigan Penal Code Sec. 234d of The Legislative Acts of Michigan 1994, as amended, allows me to Carry a Pistol for Self-Defense into Pistol Free Zones, provided; that in accordance with Sec. 234d(2)(c) I have a CPL, which I do, and ICarry my Pistol Openly. Unfortuantely, Michigan Public Safety Law 28.425o, of ACT 372 of 1927, does not allow me to Carry a Concealed Pistol in a Pistol-Free Zone, notwithstanding the fact that I have been issued a CPL from my Local Gun Board, per the same ACT 28.425a. Therefore, while visiting this School, I must comply with Michigan Public Safety Directive 28.425o(1)(a) and not ViolateMichigan Law, whilst here, while Armed with a Pistol. Fortuantely, my actions, in addition to being in compliance with The Penal Laws ofthis State,are also verified as being in compliance with Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(b)(ii), as Michigan checks my eligibility for Firearm Licensure, prior to being issued the above referenced CPL, per Michigan Public Safety Code 28.425a of ACT 372 of 1927. I am pleased to be able to revert your question to a MichiganAttorney General Opinion issued in light of this very incident. At your leisure, please review Opinion 7113 of 2002, to confirm the Legality ofmy Conduct. Furthermore, I am also pleased to announce that another Legal Opinion issued from The Attorney Generals Office of Michigan announces that my Conduct this evening is not Brandishing, per Michigan Penal Code Sec. 234e, in light of Opinion 7101 of2002. Thank you again for your concern, and if there are any further questions..., you may forward them to my Attorney at Law Mr./Ms. X, where we will readilyanswer your responses in Court. Furthermore, pursuant to The Legislative Acts of Michigan Legislature, and moreover, Michigan ACT 319 of 1990, Michigan Code 123.1102 grants the sole authority the incident to Regulate Firearms, namely Pistols, to The State, itself. Therefore, unfortuantely, any Public Safety Policy relating to Firearms in effect at this premises, it being Publicly Owned byThe People of The State of Michigan, is null and void against thedirection and guise of Michigan State Law 123.1102.

    ***Also, Michigan is not a Stop and ID State, so disclosure of anything other than maybe..., perhaps, your CPL would most probably be beyond the scope of what is permissable under a MWAG Call. Michigan Open Carry would know more, so it would be better to ask them about this.***

    ***stainless1911, I am proud of my little 'one-size-fits-all' paragraph..., and you should cut print it out, and make a little Card out of it, and Carry it in your pocket when you Carry a Pistol wherever you go. It will make you sound as if you were a genious when you read it to a Police Officer whenever they question you about your Pistol. It will make you look good in Court too, I would bet.***


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    aadvark wrote:
    Michigan Penal Code Sec. 234d of The Legislative Acts of Michigan 1994, as amended, allows me to Carry a Pistol for Self-Defense into Pistol Free Zones
    You see, this is where Im getting stuck. Schools are not listed in 234d.



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    I've never been in this situation, so take the following conjecture/suggestions with a grain of salt. Ask them what what statute they allege you are violating. If they say in violation of your CPL, tell them that CPL regulates concealed carry, not open carry. If they say in violation, of either 750.234d or 750.237a, then tell them you are a person exempt from those statutes because you have been granted a CPL. If they don't know what statute you are violating, tell them them they better contact their superior and/or prosecutor and make sure they know before falsely arresting a law-abiding-citizen.

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    That is not a problem.

    Instead, just rely on what I have presented you.

    The Michigan Legislature would have Criminalized Open Carry on School Property under Sec. 234dof Michigan Penal Code if they would have wanted to. However, knowing full well they could have done so, they chose not to.

    In short, do not read Penal Codes to tell what you what you can do, but rather, read them for what they are..., telling you what you can not do.

    Since there is nothing standing in your way of Carrying a Firearm on School Property under Sec. 234d of The Michigan Penal Code, simply Carry your Firearm while there.

    Remember my paragraph should you run into trouble, as it will help you very much.

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    aadvark wrote:
    Since there is nothing standing in your way of Carrying a Firearm on School Property under Sec. 234d of The Michigan Penal Code, simply Carry your Firearm while there.
    The prohibition on K-12 school carry is 750.237a.

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    Ok, so there really isnt anything permitting, or prohibiting it except 28.425o which specifies concealment?

    When I was suspended, I was concentrating on learning what I couldnt do, as opposed to what we can do, which is why I was unclear about this. Since My suspension I have been focused on the laws pertaining to my activities. My CPL will be returned in late July, so Im now double checking what I will be doing under the authority of those laws.

    OC is new to michigan, and OC in schools is still unknown to most, so I really want to be well versed in the area.

    There is often a difference in knowing you can do something like this, and in being able to prove it, or speak with authority on the subject when faced with a LEO or other authority figure.

    One other point, Am I correct in applying 123.1102 (preemption) in regards to schools? I beleive it applies, and that if asked to leave, I could refuse.

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    CoonDog wrote:
    aadvark wrote:
    Since there is nothing standing in your way of Carrying a Firearm on School Property under Sec. 234d of The Michigan Penal Code, simply Carry your Firearm while there.
    The prohibition on K-12 school carry is 750.237a.
    Could you elaberate? Im reading the law right now, and its still unclear to me.

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    Michigan Penal Code Sec. 237a, moreover 750.237a(5)(c) holds that Michigan Penal Code 750.237a(4) does not apply to: ***, supra, '...a[n] Individual whoLicensed by this State or another State to Carry a Concealed Weapon' (CPL).

    Remember though, under Michigan Public Safety Code 28.425o(1)(a), Concealed Pistols are not allowed in Schools.

    A CPL gives you the authority to either Openly Carry or Conceal Carry a Pistol in Michigan.

    ***Notice, Open Carry in Michigan is Legal without a CPL, however; the number of places that you may Openly Carry are greatly enhanced once you have acquired a CPL from your Licensing Gun Board.***

    Simply acquire a CPL and Open Carry while at School, and exempt yourself from the provisions of Michigan Public Safety Directive 28.425o and Michigan Penal Code 750.237a(1) through 750.237a(4).

    The second of your questions would be best answered yes. Michigan ACT 319 of 1990* of Michigan Code Preempts Local Governments from enacting... or... any other manner... restricting... [the incident]... [the Right to]... [Keep and Bear Pistols].

    ***For exact verbiage, see Michigan Code 123.1102 of ACT 319 of 1990.***

    There are two exceptions, neither of which authorizes a Local Government to deviate form the subject matter discussed here. The two exceptions are:

    1. Sec. 3 of said aforementioned ACT 319 of 1990 allows Local Governments to prevent Employees of that Unit from having Pistols whilst at work.

    2. Sec. 4 of said aforementioned ACT 319 of 1990 allows Local Governments to prevent the [wanton] Discharge of a Pistol within the Jurisdictional Limits of the Local Government.

    ***Sec. 1 of ACT 319of 1990 defines Pistol, as, basically, a Firearm with a barrel of less than 12 inches (mirrors FederalLaw). Also defines Local Government as a 'City', 'Village', 'Township', or 'County'.***

    ***By the way..., Schools are Public Buildings, and are, therefore, under the guise of State Preemption Code 123.1102. There is no such thing as Tresspassing on Property which you paid for.***

    ***I am about to leave for the day, but go back to page 1 and read the underlinded portion of my paragraph that I recently added in light of the explantions provided to you in thisArticle. I hope that you find them helpful stainless1911.***







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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Could you elaberate? Im reading the law right now, and its still unclear to me.
    I can't help you with reading comprehension, but here's the relevant passage:

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.
    Sec. 237a.
    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

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