stainless1911
Banned
imported post
I wasnt CC except for in the car, which was covered with the CPL.
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Carry in school
- Thread starter opencarryteacher
- Start date
dougwg
Regular Member
imported post
stainless1911 wrote:
stainless1911 wrote:
stainless1911 wrote:Thanks.FWIW, I dont CC, diddnt when I had a CPL, and really dont plan to in the future.
:banghead:
stainless1911
Banned
imported post
Why is it so hard to understand that I wasnt CC? I wasnt, because I dont. I diddnt then, I diddnt from the beginning, I dont now, and I won't after I get the permit back. I really dont like CC, to me, its one of the fundamental reasons that we have so many gun control laws.
Why is it so hard to understand that I wasnt CC? I wasnt, because I dont. I diddnt then, I diddnt from the beginning, I dont now, and I won't after I get the permit back. I really dont like CC, to me, its one of the fundamental reasons that we have so many gun control laws.
B
Bikenut
Guest
imported post
Far as I know Stainless1911's courtroom trial is over and done with.... but I see he continues to be tried in the court of public opinion.
Far as I know Stainless1911's courtroom trial is over and done with.... but I see he continues to be tried in the court of public opinion.
autosurgeon
Regular Member
imported post
Bikenut wrote:
People should let it go IMOP!
Bikenut wrote:
People should let it go IMOP!
stainless1911
Banned
imported post
+1
+1
+1
+1
CoonDog
Regular Member
imported post
Stainless, ribbing aside, peer feedback can be a useful tool for you if you choose to recognize it's value. It's a little surprising that, after having all these several months since your incident, you are still confused on OC with a CPL in school, as indicated by your previous posts:
Stainless, ribbing aside, peer feedback can be a useful tool for you if you choose to recognize it's value. It's a little surprising that, after having all these several months since your incident, you are still confused on OC with a CPL in school, as indicated by your previous posts:
My advice is that you DO NOT attempt to OC in a PFZ while you still experience this level of confusion on the topic. I trust that continued study of the relevant statutes will eventually lead to future expertise.
stainless1911
Banned
imported post
Im sure you can understand why Im a little "gunshy" when it comes to schools.
Figured it would be a good idea for me to get this down before I get the CPL back. I have been operating under a different set of rules. Now that the rules are going to change, its time to get things straight.
Im sure you can understand why Im a little "gunshy" when it comes to schools.
Figured it would be a good idea for me to get this down before I get the CPL back. I have been operating under a different set of rules. Now that the rules are going to change, its time to get things straight.
hopnpop
Regular Member
Slippery slopes, fine lines, technicalities, hoops, and gray areas....
I guess we're a little off-topic, discussing school carry vs. faculty leaving pistol in car in parking lot. But while we're on it, I'm wishing Zigziggityzoo was here. He pointed out some interesting stuff when he and I last breeched this subject. He pretty much turned me off of OC on school property. Bummer, yeah. But this is the Readers' Digest version of what I got from our chat about it...
I'd asked that, if OCing on school property, WHO specifically has the authority to ask you to leave? And it goes something like this... the school's technically run by the school board, who delegates the authority to the superintendent, allowing him to delegate that authority to whomever he pleases. So if he's given that authority to the janitor or hall-monitor, they actually DO have the authority to have you leave the property. What it came down to is that essentially ANY employee of the school may have that authority and to be safe and cover your arse, you should leave upon being asked to by anyone since there's no solid way of knowing who's actually got that authority or not.
I thought thru the scenario and was thinking that if asked to leave by someone, say, a teacher, one might ask the teacher if he or she has the authority to do so. The most likely answer will be yes, whether true or not. If you leave, it's over. If you don't abide or call his or her bluff, they'll most likely place a call and you'll soon be explaining it to the badges. I mean, any way you look at it, it's hairy. I decided that even as much as I'd like to OC even on public school property, I'm not getting into that tangled SNAFU of a web....
Back OT - I think the verdict is that you're legally good to go, leaving gun in vehicle, less any prohibitions in employee policy.
I guess we're a little off-topic, discussing school carry vs. faculty leaving pistol in car in parking lot. But while we're on it, I'm wishing Zigziggityzoo was here. He pointed out some interesting stuff when he and I last breeched this subject. He pretty much turned me off of OC on school property. Bummer, yeah. But this is the Readers' Digest version of what I got from our chat about it...
I'd asked that, if OCing on school property, WHO specifically has the authority to ask you to leave? And it goes something like this... the school's technically run by the school board, who delegates the authority to the superintendent, allowing him to delegate that authority to whomever he pleases. So if he's given that authority to the janitor or hall-monitor, they actually DO have the authority to have you leave the property. What it came down to is that essentially ANY employee of the school may have that authority and to be safe and cover your arse, you should leave upon being asked to by anyone since there's no solid way of knowing who's actually got that authority or not.
I thought thru the scenario and was thinking that if asked to leave by someone, say, a teacher, one might ask the teacher if he or she has the authority to do so. The most likely answer will be yes, whether true or not. If you leave, it's over. If you don't abide or call his or her bluff, they'll most likely place a call and you'll soon be explaining it to the badges. I mean, any way you look at it, it's hairy. I decided that even as much as I'd like to OC even on public school property, I'm not getting into that tangled SNAFU of a web....
Back OT - I think the verdict is that you're legally good to go, leaving gun in vehicle, less any prohibitions in employee policy.
stainless1911
Banned
Then why is it that Scott was able to speak candidly with the police, and leave with the understanding that it was legal? The laws that I have read seem to back up the claim. And that preemption should eliminate the possibility of a trespassing charge.
Taurus850CIA
Regular Member
The same way it's legal for one to carry in a bar. A bar owner has private property rights, and may ask you to leave. Since no one has been able to give a satisfactory answer as to whether a school is covered under preemption, it should be treated as private property, unless, of course, you have the financial means and the time to become case law.
stainless1911
Banned
Taurus850CIA; Since no one has been able to give a satisfactory answer as to whether a school is covered under preemption said:
stainless1911
Banned
If this is a matter of needing a case law decision, then I suggest that people stop telling people that its ok to OC in a school with a CPL.
ETA: If there were a "No Firearms" sign at a school, then could we or MOC then have some legal means by which to challenge such a sign without putting one of our members through the court system as the guinea pig for the case law?
ETA: If there were a "No Firearms" sign at a school, then could we or MOC then have some legal means by which to challenge such a sign without putting one of our members through the court system as the guinea pig for the case law?
Last edited:
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
I don't think the issue is whether or not one may OC w/ a CPL at a school. The question that has been brought up concerns a school posting "no firearms" or one that asks you to leave. The meaning of terms used in the law are what the legislature says they are in that particular act or, if not mentioned, the term is as defined by a dictionary.
The law lists those entities which are preempted, so the Act's definition is operative.
FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
Act 319 of 1990
123.1101 Definitions.
Sec. 1.
As used in this act:
(a) “Local unit of government” means a city, village, township, or county.
(b) “Pistol” means that term as defined in section 222 of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being section 750.222 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.
A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
stainless1911
Banned
That would be correct. We know that one may OC in a school with a CPL. The question that remains is if a school is a local unit of government.
A school is not private property, but it is not open to the general public either. As a parent of a child which goes to a particular school, I am not the general public. When the school passes a regulation prohibiting my RKBA, by asking me to leave, then that school has, as a tax funded public utility which I am otherwise granted acces to, begun to govern. Therefore, 123.1102, preemption, would apply to the school as a governing body.
Thoughts?
This is a very important issue to potentially thousands of people in this state.
Yooper
Regular Member
huh?!?!
stainless1911
Banned
Ok I shoulda worded it a little better. OC isnt new to michigan, only michiganders. and possibly some michigeese
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
A school as a "Utility"?!?? Hmmm...no.
No mention is made in the law regarding "governing body" either. Where did that come from?
Are you just trying to justify a response to a "what-if" situation? I think your reasoning would go... nowhere. But hey, give it a try and see how it works out for you. :uhoh:
stainless1911
Banned
Im not going to just "try" anything. Im here to find out facts, discuss them, and then in learning the law, follow it, and hope others follow it as well.
Since nobody seems to know how to classify a school, I too was grasping for a term. A governing body would be a term applicable to a school which, not being private property, but a tax funded (entity?) using its authority to create regulations for the citizen to follow under penalty of law. This should classify a school as a local unit of government.
Since nobody seems to know how to classify a school, I too was grasping for a term. A governing body would be a term applicable to a school which, not being private property, but a tax funded (entity?) using its authority to create regulations for the citizen to follow under penalty of law. This should classify a school as a local unit of government.
hopnpop
Regular Member
I need to find Zig and point him to this thread. I, of course, can't recall all the info he offered. I believe it was established that a school does fall under "governing body". Trust me, I didn't like the info that he presented to me but he backed it with case laws. It sounded solid enough to keep me from carrying on school property, even with my CPL. I really need to find Zig and bring him in so he can weigh in. I'm going to try and find the thread on whatever other forum we discussed this on and link it...