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Thread: Question about Disclosure

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    Regular Member Greyfoxx's Avatar
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    Me and TheSzerdi were talking the other day and we came up with this question that we both aren't sure of the answer, and I was hoping somebody on here could do us the favor of coming up with an answer.

    Ok, well. The law is if a LEO stops you, you must disclose if you're carrying (Not sure offhand if it's just CC or OC too, but thats the reason for this post). Well, If a LEO comes up to your place of residance, and knocks on the door and asks you questions, Are you required to disclose that you're carrying (OC or CC), we're not sure on this. Is it considered a stop? or not? And is it required that you disclose even though you're in your own house or does that not matter?

    Thanks,

    Greyfoxx

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    You only have to disclose if you are CCing and only if you are stopped or detained.

    A LEO coming to your door for the purpose of asking questions depends.

    Is the LEO detaining you? If so and you are CC you must disclose.

    If the LEO just is asking have you seen any suspicious activity around the neighborhood or something of that nature then I would not feel I was detained and therefor would not see any need to disclose I am armed.

    The same goes for if you call the police for something that has nothing to do with your gun. IMOP they have no need to know I am armed if I am CC. If I am OC and they don't notice oh well.. as they are on my property if they have a problem with it oh well.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Typically, I would say no on this too, and wouldn't disclose were an officer to show up at my door.

    However, I do know Andy's luck, and I probably would, just for the sake of safety. If he says he's going to disarm you at your own house however, I'd tell him to go sit and turn.
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    however, if you were carrying cc in this scenario, and did not have a cpl (don't need one to cc at your own house) then you would have no duty to disclose.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    Obviously you only need to disclose if you are cc'ing. Open carrying = no duty to disclose.

    The mcl in question does not give any sort of exemptions to disclosing while cc'ing, although the language seems geared toward a traffic stop. I would say that yes, you would be obligated to disclose even at home if you were being stopped/detained by a police officer if you had a cpl.

    no cpl = no disclose
    no cc = no disclose

    cc and cpl = disclose
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

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    lapeer20m has given you great and simple to follow advice, and I concur with his statements 100%.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    lapeer20m wrote:

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    Can you be 'stopped' at home? To be 'stopped' you must have been 'going'.

    He's not in a vehicle. I'd say no disclosure is needed on your own private property unless you're in a mobile home..


    Just saying.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    however, if you were carrying cc in this scenario, and did not have a cpl (don't need one to cc at your own house) then you would have no duty to disclose.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    Obviously you only need to disclose if you are cc'ing. Open carrying = no duty to disclose.

    The mcl in question does not give any sort of exemptions to disclosing while cc'ing, although the language seems geared toward a traffic stop. I would say that yes, you would be obligated to disclose even at home if you were being stopped/detained by a police officer if you had a cpl.

    no cpl = no disclose
    no cc = no disclose

    cc and cpl = disclose
    So... what if you CC at home without a permit? If you say you don't have to disclose, must a cpl holder?
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    Correct, if you are carrying concealed on your own property and are not a CPL holder, you have no duty to disclose your concealed weapon to an officer. The duty to disclose is built into the CPL regulations.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    northofnowhere wrote:
    Correct, if you are carrying concealed on your own property and are not a CPL holder, you have no duty to disclose your concealed weapon to an officer. The duty to disclose is built into the CPL regulations.
    even if you have a CPL, even if its in your pocket, IN your house...
    you are not carrying UNDER the authority of the CPL, so you would not be required to disclose..
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    The more I think of the original question, the more things seem to pop out at me.

    If you're not being detained, you don't need to disclose, am I right?

    If an officer knocks on your door, and begins asking questions, I'd ask if you are being detained or not. If not, you have no obligation to my knowledge to even answer their questions, and can politely ask them to go away if you so choose. This may make for an angry police officer however.

    I tend to agree too with Defender's answer. If you're carrying within your home, you're not carrying under your CPL statutes being that anyone can carry however they wish within the home as long as they live there, and therefore wouldn't be required to disclose.


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    malignity wrote:
    Can you be 'stopped' at home? To be 'stopped' you must have been 'going'.

    He's not in a vehicle. I'd say no disclosure is needed on your own private property unless you're in a mobile home..


    Just saying.
    Hahahaha, I resemble that remark.

    stopped, going, hahahahaha

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    What the nitty gritty in this discussion seems to be in the term "stopped" which is how the law words it. I could not find a legal definition so i would go by a dictionary definition. Wouldn't anything that stops you from doing what you were doing, if it be by a LEO, be defined as a stop.

    Personally if a LEO approaches me anywhere, in any situation, if I am carrying concealed, I am going to disclose, whether on my property or elsewhere, no big deal. If an officer knocks on my door at home, he has stopped me from going about my business, hence he has stopped me, even if it's for a polite conversation or if it's for a donation to the local office's charity of choice, he has stopped me. If the law meant for us to disclose during a terry stop, or during detainment, it would state those words, but it does not, it simply says stopped.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Can you be 'stopped' at home? To be 'stopped' you must have been 'going'.

    He's not in a vehicle. I'd say no disclosure is needed on your own private property unless you're in a mobile home..


    Just saying.
    Hahahaha, I resemble that remark.

    stopped, going, hahahahaha
    When I was a young man during my travels I would "go" from place to place... now that I'm an old man during my travels I am always on the lookout for places to "go".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    After reading the replies, I'm going to say that you have absolutely no legal requirement to disclose when on your own property, because you're not carrying under authority of your CPL. That being said if you have a CPL and want to keep it without a lengthy / costly court battle, you'd better disclose.

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    TheSzerdi wrote:
    After reading the replies, I'm going to say that you have absolutely no legal requirement to disclose when on your own property, because you're not carrying under authority of your CPL. That being said if you have a CPL and want to keep it without a lengthy / costly court battle, you'd better disclose.
    Why in the World would you say that? J/K

    Seriously, I agree. I wouldn't push the28.425f envelope too much and rely on 750.227 to pull you out of a potentially bad situation. Section 5f, specifically states those who are licensed under the act and carrying a concealed pistol and makes no provision for those who are carrying on or off their property.

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    i think the only answer to this is legal precedent
    so until someone tests the waters, we're in the dark (to use two idiom in one sentence)
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    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    i think the only answer to this is legal precedent
    so until someone tests the waters, we're in the dark (to use two idiom in one sentence)
    Who you calling an idiom?
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    Venator wrote:
    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    i think the only answer to this is legal precedent
    so until someone tests the waters, we're in the dark (to use two idiom in one sentence)
    Who you calling an idiom?
    Oh, that's a male idiot and idiof is a female idiot.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    i think the only answer to this is legal precedent
    so until someone tests the waters, we're in the dark (to use two idiom in one sentence)
    Who you calling an idiom?
    Oh, that's a male idiot and idiof is a female idiot.
    Oh very good.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    smellslikemichigan wrote:
    i think the only answer to this is legal precedent
    so until someone tests the waters, we're in the dark (to use two idiom in one sentence)
    Who you calling an idiom?
    check your I-d 10T form. up at the top it should say whether you're an idiom or not
    i would tell you exactly where to find it, but i don't have one
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    I don't think the law creates a provision for "carrying under the authority of a CPL" ... that's a term people are making up ... a perfectly reasonable one BTW ... but I'm not sure it has any legal standing.

    As written, I think the law states that if you have a CPL, and you're carrying concealed, you must disclose to a LEO if stopped ... regardless of where the stop takes place (even if it's in your own home).

    For me ... the key is whether you are being "stopped". If the LEO comes to the door to investigate YOU, you're being stopped. If he comes to the door to tell you to lock your windows and doors because there's a prowler in the area ... you're not being stopped.

    But that said ... my policy is to err on the side of caution. For instance ... recently, a guy ran into my car and smacked up the bumper. We called the police to come out and do a report. When the deputy showed up, I disclosed to her that I was CCing. Was I required to? Technically, probably not, I don't think she was "stopping" me. But I figured better a funny look (which she gave me) ... then not saying anything, having my gun accidentally show, and having her flip out and order me to the ground at gunpoint.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Keep in mind also the bit that says that "a person shall not carry a concealed pistol" exception that says "unless that person is inside their dwelling house"...

    It is legal to conceal, inside your home, without a CPL.

    The requirement to disclose is a part of the CPL statute.

    Since you don't need a CPL to conceal in your own home, you do not need to abide by the CPL statute while you are in your own home.

    I would read this to say you do not need to disclose.

    I have to run out so I don't have time to look up the cite but I know you guys will find it...

    ETA: I'm not a lawyer

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    I would say, that you dont need a permission slip to conceal in your property, but you still have to disclose.

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    northofnowhere wrote:
    What the nitty gritty in this discussion seems to be in the term "stopped" which is how the law words it. I could not find a legal definition so i would go by a dictionary definition.
    The problem is the courts look at "stop" with a LEO based upon the totality of the circumstances. It is a very technical question in a legal sense. Several different factors to consider and they are all assessed to determine if you were really stopped. The answer would be dependent on the specific facts of the situation. For instance, you could be sitting on a public bench waiting for a parade to start and be stopped. You could be on your evening jog and be stopped. There are a lot of factors to look and hard to assess in non-specific hypotheticals.

    However, a cop coming to your door to ask "did you see the car involved in the drive-by shooting" during a neighborhood canvas is less likely to be a stop than the dispatch center received a call about you sitting here with a gun visible on your hip and as an officer, I want to know why you have a gun, what do you need it for, and if legal, can you return it to your vehicle.

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    CrimDoc wrote:
    I don't think the law creates a provision for "carrying under the authority of a CPL" ... that's a term people are making up ... a perfectly reasonable one BTW ... but I'm not sure it has any legal standing.
    As an attorney, I have seen never seen this a term of art for the CPL statutes or related case law. Though I had to think about it the first time I read, so it might work on a sleepy prosecutor and judge.

    But that said ... my policy is to err on the side of caution. This is the exact advice I give when I receive calls on this very issue. Why spend thousands of dollars for what a few seconds could have saved you? There may be no duty, but in this particular cop's eyes (the one you disclose to) you are "grade A" in their book and they may reciprocate the atmosphere of respect that you just showed them. Of course, if you want to spend money, please call me when you are released from police custody.

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