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Thread: Think your job is rough

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    Since follow-up house calls began in late April, there have been 252 incidents in which Census workers have been harmed or threatened, including 11 times when shots were fired at them and 86 times when they were threatened with such weapons as guns, axes and crossbows.
    Good lord! All those incidents over a population count.

    Our census taker persisted in asking us questions and said it was the law that we answer. I only told him that two adults lived in the house and to forget the rest of the questions.

    I know that there are many out there who don't want the government asking questions, especially on one's own property. I'm one too. But I never would have threatened him. Just tell him to go away and close the door.

    I wonder just how many of those threats listed in the article went without investigation...

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    I've been working various census operations since January. The only weapons that have been used against me were locked gates and rudeness.

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    The best part is that being a government job, I'd bet money that census workers are explicitly forbidden from carrying (openly or concealed) under any circumstance.

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    That is correct.

    However, I understand and accept their reasoning. We are "from the guvmint." Already we are not trusted. Carrying a gun will intimidate further.

    One reason folks won't talk to us is that they fear we are (or will share information with) law enforcement. And, face it, some of the people we need to count are criminals. We still have to count them. We have to earn enough trust to ask those ten questions. A gun will spook them.

    BTW, we will not share one iota of information with law enforcement. A drug deal could go down right in front of us during an interview, and we are forbidden by law from sharing the information we have.

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    novasig226r wrote:
    Since follow-up house calls began in late April, there have been 252 incidents in which Census workers have been harmed or threatened, including 11 times when shots were fired at them and 86 times when they were threatened with such weapons as guns, axes and crossbows.
    Good lord! All those incidents over a population count.

    Our census taker persisted in asking us questions and said it was the law that we answer. I only told him that two adults lived in the house and to forget the rest of the questions.

    I know that there are many out there who don't want the government asking questions, especially on one's own property. I'm one too. But I never would have threatened him. Just tell him to go away and close the door.

    I wonder just how many of those threats listed in the article went without investigation...
    There are a lot of workers I have run into that do not know what questions we have to answer by law. So they don't seem to understand the word NO, I feel sorry for the many who have been hurt just because "they are from the government". Yet those who do more than what is by required law and refuse to leave the property when asked, I do not feel sorry for. What drives me nuts is they continue to ask question to our neighbors that we are not required by law to answer, thank God everyone who leaves near me has agreed to refuse any questions about our neighbors. I see it as another easy task they screw up, they government is push more for questions that we by law do not have to answer. Yet they wounder why we do not trust the government. That and the many people they do hire I would never trust with my info.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    Here is a statement read to or by every respondent:

    You are required by law to provide the information requested. These federal laws can be found in the United States Code, Title 13 (Sections 9, 141, 193, 214, and 221) and Title 44 (Section 2108). Please visit our Web site at < http://www.census.gov/2010census >and click "Protecting your Answers to learn more about our privacy policy and data protection.
    If you refuse, we will attempt to find a proxy to answer the survey questions. The could be a neighbor, a landlord, or anyone else who might have the requested information. We prefer to get voluntary cooperation and are trained to be persuasive and not demanding.

    However, with each successive operation we become more dogged in getting the information from those from whom we were unable to acquire the information in the previous operation.

    No census worker should try to get on or stay on your property once told to stay away or go away. If you feel that a census worker is acting inappropriately, call your Local Census Office and report him. The first thing he should have said upon approaching you is his name. If you were not there, he should have left a Notice of Visit containing, in the first blank, his name.

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    Nope. Leave. Trespass. Sheriff. Wisconsin presumes trespass notice.

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    The Census folks can quote any law/title/chapter they want. If it isn't backed by the constitution, it's not required. Last I checked, the only thing that fine document says is a count of the people.

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    The specific questions asked are to implement the purpose of counting everyone as called for in the Constitution.

    Some people will be counted twice. They have more than one home. They were counted at college or in jail as well as at home, etc. By asking identifying questions, the bureau will be able to catch and eliminate folks who are counted twice. When folks refuse to provide answers, they thwart the constitutional process.

    I fully understand why folks don't want to give this information. They fear that this information will be used for purposes other than counting the population, that the information will be shared with others, even other government or law enforcement agencies.

    By law, the detailed information is protected for 72 years. Only statistical summaries can be released prior to that time. The Census Bureau has the finest record in the world of protecting confidential information. We cherish this record and put forth every effort to protect it.

    In any event, the laws that some deem unconstitutional have been held constitutional by the courts. While our approach is not to force answers using the law as a stick, but to cajole answers using reason as a carrot, your answers are required by law. If you refuse to answer the questions, you are acting unlawfully.

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    eye95 wrote:
    By law, the detailed information is protected for 72 years. Only statistical summaries can be released prior to that time. The Census Bureau has the finest record in the world of protecting confidential information. We cherish this record and put forth every effort to protect it.

    Yeah, I've seen how data can't even be kept secure by Sandia National Labs, White House leaks, FBI/CIA/NSA/whatever leaks, etc. Considering that personally identifiable information is sitting on the kitchen counters of random census workers homes all across the nation, I can't really say that I get the warm fuzzies about data security.

    When they are no longer over-reporting 'jobs created' to help the administration inflate the employment numbers, or telling census workers to 'spend more time on the paperwork' (happening to some folks I personally know who are working for the census right now) to inflate their hours at MY expense, then I'll start trusting them a bit more. In the meantime, they got my form back, with the constitutionally-required fields completed, sent me a 2nd copy for no apparent reason, also at my expense, and overall appear to be just as incompetent as any other government ageny.

    That said, if I needed work, and census was the only thing I could find, you'd better f'n believe I'd take it AND be very much armed while out and about (concealed of course.) Too many shady circumstances to walk around with nothing but a laminated ID card on a neck lanyard and a cell phoneto 'protect' me.

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    This got me to thinking which is always bad so you don't have to go there. We loudly and emphatically proclaim our rights as stated in both the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights yet when something comes along that we may not like we just as loudly proclaim it even though it is directly part of that same Constitustion. Article 1 Section 2 proclaims that there will be an enumberation of the people.As part of that enumeration it will be necessary togather information on age, sex and race. It also says "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct". If all you are going to provide is that 2 people are living in your house and "get off my property then don't proclaim the rest of the Constitution. If you are not going to accept all of it then don't accept part of it.

    It doesn't directly say that you have to provide your name but age, sex, and race are part of the original Constitution and then whatever law requires.

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    PT111 wrote:
    This got me to thinking which is always bad so you don't have to go there. We loudly and emphatically proclaim our rights as stated in both the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights yet when something comes along that we may not like we just as loudly proclaim it even though it is directly part of that same Constitustion. Article 1 Section 2 proclaims that there will be an enumberation of the people.As part of that enumeration it will be necessary togather information on age, sex and race. It also says "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct". If all you are going to provide is that 2 people are living in your house and "get off my property then don't proclaim the rest of the Constitution. If you are not going to accept all of it then don't accept part of it.

    It doesn't directly say that you have to provide your name but age, sex, and race are part of the original Constitution and then whatever law requires.
    +111

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    That clause by no means gives the fed free reign to 'direct' in ANY manner whatsoever. The one and ONLY purpose is to count the number of people. sex, race, etc. is absolutely not required in order to obtain that count.

    The law could say that you have to stand on your head naked while reciting a pledge to goats on a Thursday to provide your census answers. Just because "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct" is in the text doesn't mean that the law can step outside of the "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years," context.


    Edit: I find it particularly screwed up that the very same government that would label someone a racist in a heartbeat (being from Arizona, let's jsut say we hear more than enough of that crap already) and that supposedly claims that all races are equal, would have the balls to ask race on the census. Affirmative action at its finest =)


    PT111 wrote:
    It doesn't directly say that you have to provide your name but age, sex, and race are part of the original Constitution and then whatever law requires.
    I'd sure like to see that as I have yet to locate any source that claims (or proves) any of those criteria to be in the constitution, original or amended.

    http://www.house.gov/house/Constitut...stitution.html

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    "Article 1 Section 2 proclaims that there will be an enumberation of the people.As part of that enumeration it will be necessary togather information on age, sex and race. It also says "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct". If all you are going to provide is that 2 people are living in your house and "get off my property then don't proclaim the rest of the Constitution. If you are not going to accept all of it then don't accept part of it."

    By Law Direct- meaning the Census can ask any question and require an answer for any question that is lawful. The government is prohibited from violating a citizens privacy- which is the first law that the Census requirements must abide by. The government is prohibited from unreasonable search of citizens and from demanding "papers" (to be secure in property). This is the second law that the Census must abide by. First, the Census cannot trespass. Second, the Census is limited in which questions it may lawfully require.

    The Census can ASK you whatever it wants... You are only Required to supply certain information.


    Thoreau and I agree on this.

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    Thoreau wrote:
    That clause by no means gives the fed free reign to 'direct' in ANY manner whatsoever. The one and ONLY purpose is to count the number of people. sex, race, etc. is absolutely not required in order to obtain that count.

    The law could say that you have to stand on your head naked while reciting a pledge to goats on a Thursday to provide your census answers. Just because "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct" is in the text doesn't mean that the law can step outside of the "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years," context.
    Doing so would not help achieve the goal of the Census. Asking identifying information to eliminate duplicate counting helps achieve the goal.

    Counting must be systematic. There are other ways of being systematic. For example, we could require everyone, apart from census workers remain home for a given period of time and then have a census worker visit every home and do a head count at that time. We could make everyone go to a specific location in their community and stick their thumb in a bottle of ink while census workers count the number of thumb-sticks. We could make lists of identifying information and count all unique sets of identifying information.

    We do the last one. Two hundred years of experience have proved the efficacy of that technique when you have to conduct the Census over a period of months in a mobile society.

    That is the eminently reasonable Manner which the Law directs. That was a policy decision. If you do not like it, I suggest that you advocate for another Manner to be implemented in Law. I suggest that you not act unlawfully--especially when we expect others to act lawfully, such as LEOs during a stop.

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    The Ape says; "I don't like a whole lot about the government, but I sure do love that Census program they have."

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    In the very first Census, the Founders had to provide their names:

    http://www.1930census.com/1790_census_questions.php

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    The Ape says; "I don't like a whole lot about the government, but I sure do love that Census program they have."
    I say no such thing. I am talking about the lawful, constitutional, and reasonable nature of the method of conducting the Census.

    It does make your need to trash my arguments easier when you misrepresent them totally. That is called a "strawman argument" and demonstrates rhetorical inadequacy.

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    eye95 wrote:
    In the very first Census, the Founders had to provide their names:

    http://www.1930census.com/1790_census_questions.php
    Yeah 1790 isn't the generation we have a problem with...

    Try 2010!

    Just for ***** and giggles... I'll pee on your parade.1790 Census.

    • Name of Head of Household (First / Last)
    • Number of Free White Males of Sixteen Years and upwards
    • Number of Free White Males under Sixteen Years
    • Number of Free White Females
    • Number of all other Free persons
    • Number of Slaves
    • Town or district of residence (sometimes recorded)


    1880 Census

    1. In Cities (Name of Street, House Number)
    2. Dwelling houses numbered in order of visitation
    3. Families numbered in order of visitation
    4. The Name of each Person whose place of abode, on 1st day of June, 1880, was in this family.
    5. PERSONAL DESCRIPTION: Color — White, W. Black, B. Mulatto, Mu. Chinese, C. Indian, I.
    6. PERSONAL DESCRIPTION: Sex — Male, M. Female, F.
    7. PERSONAL DESCRIPTION: Age at last birthday prior to June 1, 1880. If under 1 year, give months in fraction
    8. If born within the Census year, give the month
    9. Relationship of each person to the head of the family -- whether wife, son, daughter, servant, border, or other.
    10. Civil Condition: Single
    11. Civil Condition: Married
    12. Civil Condition: Widowed / Divorced, D.
    13. Married during Census year
    14. Occupation: Profession, Occupation or Trade of each person, male or female
    15. Occupation: Number of months this person has been unemployed during the Census year
    16. Health: Blind
    17. Health: Deaf and Dumb
    18. Health: Idiotic
    19. Health: Insane
    20. Health: Maimed, Chrippled, Bedridden, or otherwise disabled
    21. Education: Attended school within the Census year
    22. Education: Cannot read
    23. Education: Cannot write
    24. Nativity: Place of Birth of this person, naming State or Territory of United States, or the Country, if of foreign birth
    25. Nativity: Place of Birth of the Father of this person, naming the State or Territory of United States, or the Country, if of foreign birth.
    26. Nativity: Place of Birth of the Mother of this person, naming the State or Territory of United States, or the Country, if of foreign birth.
    [line]
    HMMMMMMMMMM I'm sure the Founding Fathers were only asked 7 Total Questions for a reason. How many Total Questions are on Your questionnaire?


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    cscitney87 wrote:
    1880 Census *snip*
    Let's not even get into the long form version nowadays =)


    eye95 wrote:
    In the very first Census, the Founders had to provide their names:

    http://www.1930census.com/1790_census_questions.php
    So let's go over those...

    • 1-Name of Head of Household (First / Last)
    • 2-Number of Free White Males of Sixteen Years and upwards
    • 3-Number of Free White Males under Sixteen Years
    • 4-Number of Free White Females
    • 5-Number of all other Free persons
    • 6-Number of Slaves
    • 7-Town or district of residence (sometimes recorded)

    1- Okaly dokaly

    2- Race is irrelevant now that it isn't just whites who can vote, so there goes that. Free or not is also irrelevant since slavery is gone. So let's reduce this, for modern times, to 'number of people in household.'

    3- See #2

    4- See #2, and add in that Suffrage took the gender issue out of the equation.

    5- Again, #2

    6- Guess what, see #2!

    7- Pretty easy to figure that out since the form is being sent to me by mail, so they KNOW the state, city, zip code, street, building number, and unit number. If being taken by a live census taker, they also know that information since they're already standing there.

    They seemed to figure out the number of people without a problem with the information in those 7 questions. Since those can be filtered down to, at most, three questions by today's standards, there is no need for there to be 10 questions on the standard form, and certainly ZERO reason for the extended/long form.

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    You may say okaly dokaly to number 1 now, but just a few minutes ago, the argument was "numbers only!"

    Anyway, I hope you don't think that if there were two John Smiths in Lexington, that some identifying information wasn't written in the book to distinguish them: "the carpenter," "the one down by the creek," "the one with the wart on his neck," etc.

    Also, a crude form of address was also provided. Sex and race were gleanable from the information provided.

    They didn't ask for telephone numbers. Ya got me there.

    The point is (and it seems to have been totally missed) that the Founders recognized from the very first Census that the Manner that they Law should direct would include the collecting of a modicum of personal identifying information--


    not just the numbers of people as so many have contended was all the Constitution allowed. That is just plain incorrect.

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    Bold font takes the day!

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    The census is such bu!!5h1t! What need do they have to ask how many toilets are in my house or what time do I normally leave for work!

    As far as differentiating between the same person at multiple addresses they ASK for social security numbers!

    There should be one question, "How many people live fulltime at this address?" Nothing more. [of course that assumes our government has kicked any illegals out first]

    I don't care if they protect the data from "other" people or not because I ain't giving it!

    I understand people take census "jobs" to pay "their" bills but I can't say I would act kindly toward them as they are representing an oppressive state!

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Bold font takes the day!
    Right. It is a further demonstration of your rhetorical inadequacies.
    You said that about your own words. Wow.

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