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Thread: Muskegon letter to the editor

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    If CC were illegal, or simply not done, then peoples irrational fears regarding guns and their owners would evaporate. Thus the laws supporting those irrational fears would never be written, and the existing ones would be quickly and easily defeated.



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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Here is my post there:

    Mr Richard L. Ciezak Sr.:

    Your letter is, at best, disingenuous and at worst, an attempt to intentionally mislead. You start out by stating you are "torn between two arguments", but your last line gives away your true opinion and reveals that you are not torn at all:

    "Keep testing the system and there are bound to be consequences"

    Here are the points you make that I take issue with:

    1. There is no right, specified in MI or US Law, that people for "the most part to be free from worry and anxiety". This is a FREE WILL CHOICE that each person must make, in your example they have chosen to become worried or anxious. I fully support their free will choice, but my choices and actions need not be dictated by their choices or actions.

    2. The Police, without Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause of a crime committed, cannot detain a person lawfully carrying a firearm even momentarily. There are plenty of cases of law that have upheld this, include Terry v. Ohio. See the US 4th Amendment!

    3. Michigan is not a "stop and ID state". Unless a person is driving or carrying a concealed pistol under authority of a CPL, that person has no duty or requirement to provide identification. Do you really advocate a state that requires "your papers please" like Germany did in the 1930's-1940's?

    4. Your statement of "proof of ownership of said weapon" is violation of 4th amendment freedoms from unreasonable searches. This would be equivalent to stopping every person driving a car to ensure that they have a drivers license and insurance or stopping every person walking with a child to ensure that they are not a sex offender. See my #2 above.

    5. You state that "and in most cases, if not all, request that said individual place the weapon in a vehicle or transport it home." Since you state that Open Carry is "not illegal", how can a police officer legally do this?

    I advocate people to carry LEGALLY in the way that THEY CHOOSE. You sir, are a strong advocate for gun rights exercised ONLY AS YOU SEE FIT.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I posted a reply too. I think the cost of the CPL is a big issue. Why cant we get lifetime permits and why does it cost the same to renew as gettting a new one, thats BS!



    reply-



    Some of you people are so funny. So it's ok with you if someone carries, as long as you don't see it? Newsflash- its not the guy carrying a gun openly that you need to worry about, its the criminal concealing his. Did you ever consider that if everyone open carried instead of CC that everyone would get over that anxiety pretty fast?

    The media has taught us all guns are bad, so you get a little freaked out when you see one, the reality is thousands use guns to protect themselves and their families every year, I don't consider that a bad thing.

    2 more very importatnt points here-

    if open carry was illegal, having your concealed weapon show through your clothes would be illegal, as it would be if you bent over and part of it showed, do you really want peopel to lose thier license over something stupid like that?

    Second, the lawmakers in this state decided to require training and pay a $105 to get a CPL, alot of people cant afford $150 class+$105 license, and why should they have to pay for it? Not to mention license needs to be renewed every 4-5 years, at FULL PRICE! A lot of states offer liftetime licenses or they are as cheap as $10. Our Constitution(MI and USA) says we have the right to keep and BEAR arms, it says nothing about only if you can afford it. Open carry is free, and its the only option for a lot of people, especially when times are tight.

    Please try to understand open carry preserves our rights and helps to show the public that guns are not bad, they are tools for protecting yourself and your family, and I am glad I have that tool.


    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    good replies guys, that's why I posted it, I knew some of you guys could address this better than I

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    It appears that this "letter to the editor "guy may be a trustee of Fruitland Township. Why am I not surprised?

    Code:
    TRUSTEE FRUITLAND TOWNSHIP (Vote For 4)
    
    3 of 3 Precincts Reporting               Total
    
    Mary Ann Bard                         Rep             430
    Scott Beard                           Rep             252
    Norma Binns                           Rep             389
    
    Richard L Ciezak                      Rep             351
      Jan Deur                              Rep             698
    Lester E Hammond                      Rep             319
    
    Kathleen A Nearanz                    Rep             364
    
    WRITE-IN                              Rep               2
    Code:
    http://co.muskegon.mi.us/clerk/elections/archiveresults/elections_080508.stm
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Good job guys and good research PD!!

    I would post but you guys took all the good points :P
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    "Law abiding citizens, who are out with their families enjoying a good time, have the right for the most part to be free from worry and anxiety."

    The above quote has no basis in law. In some segments of society, a young black man dressed in the "gangsta" style, or a Muslim man with a full beard may cause anxiety. Do you advocate their rights be infringed so an irrational family can enjoy an "anxiety free" afternoon? Making laws based on certain peoples "anxieties" couldn't be more irrational.


    That was my contribution.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    detroit_fan wrote:
    I posted a reply too. I think the cost of the CPL is a big issue. Why cant we get lifetime permits and why does it cost the same to renew as gettting a new one, thats BS!



    reply-



    Some of you people are so funny. So it's ok with you if someone carries, as long as you don't see it? Newsflash- its not the guy carrying a gun openly that you need to worry about, its the criminal concealing his. Did you ever consider that if everyone open carried instead of CC that everyone would get over that anxiety pretty fast?

    The media has taught us all guns are bad, so you get a little freaked out when you see one, the reality is thousands use guns to protect themselves and their families every year, I don't consider that a bad thing.

    2 more very importatnt points here-

    if open carry was illegal, having your concealed weapon show through your clothes would be illegal, as it would be if you bent over and part of it showed, do you really want peopel to lose thier license over something stupid like that?

    Second, the lawmakers in this state decided to require training and pay a $105 to get a CPL, alot of people cant afford $150 class+$105 license, and why should they have to pay for it? Not to mention license needs to be renewed every 4-5 years, at FULL PRICE! A lot of states offer liftetime licenses or they are as cheap as $10. Our Constitution(MI and USA) says we have the right to keep and BEAR arms, it says nothing about only if you can afford it. Open carry is free, and its the only option for a lot of people, especially when times are tight.

    Please try to understand open carry preserves our rights and helps to show the public that guns are not bad, they are tools for protecting yourself and your family, and I am glad I have that tool.

    Michigan's CPL qualifies as an alternative to the background check requirements of the Brady law. If they were "lifetime", they would not qualify. One of the federal requirements is that the permit must be valid for no more than 5 years from the date of issuance.
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...rmit_chart.pdf

    edit: added link
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    How about NO PERMITS at all.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    How about NO PERMITS at all.
    Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!

    :celebrate
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    How about NO PERMITS at all.
    Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!

    :celebrate
    or at least a constitutional carry law with optional free of charge cpl to give us the ability to carry in other states.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    There ya go

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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    Arizona just became the third Constitutional Carry state to join Alaska & Vermont. That's where we need to be headed.....just sayin....:quirky:quirky
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    Thanks for the tip Slowdog, I diddnt know about AZ.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Thanks for the tip Slowdog, I diddnt know about AZ.
    Kind of a poorly written article and makes me wonder if the author isn't a poster here, or at the very least a lurker.

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