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Thread: HOA restricts OC

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    I was asked today by a member of the Home Owners Association not to carry my pistol at the pool. Do they have the authority to dictate that?

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    What's your contract/covenant say?

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    Nothing about handguns.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Was he acting in an official capacity for the HOAor was he just acting on his own?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I asked her if it was written anywhere that I couldn't carry and he said no but she and the rest of the board members would look into getting it added.

    I guess the questions I have are 1) do they have the authority to keep me from carrying there and 2) would it be better for
    the OC community if I just did
    the diplomatic thing and left it at home.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ikarus wrote:
    I asked her if it was written anywhere that I couldn't carry and he said no but she and the rest of the board members would look into getting it added.
    The Home Owners elect your BOD to make the rules. If you challenge a rule that does not exist, they will simply create one. Then you are carrying on private property (the association pool) that is forbidden by assiciation rule. If you break the rule, they can call the police and have you tresspassed.. (even if you are one of the owners) because as an OWNER, you elected the BOD.

    It is a slippery slope.. I would love to see somone sue their HOA to prevent this (but suing the HOA is really suing yourself).

    IANAL

    Ed
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    IANAL.

    The State of Virginia regulates Property Owners' Associations, via the Property Owners' Association Act.

    Section 55-513 - Adoption and enforcement of rules, states, in part:

    A. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the board of directors shall have the power to establish, adopt, and enforce rules and regulations with respect to use of the common areas and with respect to such other areas of responsibility assigned to the association by the declaration, except where expressly reserved by the declaration to the members. Rules and regulations may be adopted by resolution and shall be reasonably published or distributed throughout the development. A majority of votes cast, in person or by proxy, at a meeting convened in accordance with the provisions of the association's bylaws and called for that purpose, shall repeal or amend any rule or regulation adopted by the board of directors. Rules and regulations may be enforced by any method normally available to the owner of private property in Virginia, including, but not limited to, application for injunctive relief or damages, during which the court may award to the association court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees.
    It appears to me that there are two interesting things here.

    The State of Virginia has the ultimate authority over HOAs. Perhaps this is an area that the VCDL would be interested in looking at for future legislative action.

    Any rules or regulations placed by the directors appear to be subject to overrule by the general membership. If your HOA is anything like mine, it wouldn't take too much effort to round up enough folks to sway a vote in your favor.

    TFred

    P.S.... here's an interesting thought... an HOA, as an entity subject to regulation by the state, surely falls under the spirit, if not the letter of preemption... sort of like the Dillon Rule... if HOAs derive their authority from the state, how can they not be ultimately considered a state authority? Yeah, it's a stretch... but there is definitely a direct link between HOAs and State government.

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    TFred wrote:
    IANAL.

    The State of Virginia regulates Property Owners' Associations, via the Property Owners' Association Act.

    Section 55-513 - Adoption and enforcement of rules, states, in part:

    A. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the board of directors shall have the power to establish, adopt, and enforce rules and regulations with respect to use of the common areas and with respect to such other areas of responsibility assigned to the association by the declaration, except where expressly reserved by the declaration to the members. Rules and regulations may be adopted by resolution and shall be reasonably published or distributed throughout the development. A majority of votes cast, in person or by proxy, at a meeting convened in accordance with the provisions of the association's bylaws and called for that purpose, shall repeal or amend any rule or regulation adopted by the board of directors. Rules and regulations may be enforced by any method normally available to the owner of private property in Virginia, including, but not limited to, application for injunctive relief or damages, during which the court may award to the association court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees.
    It appears to me that there are two interesting things here.

    The State of Virginia has the ultimate authority over HOAs. Perhaps this is an area that the VCDL would be interested in looking at for future legislative action.

    Any rules or regulations placed by the directors appear to be subject to overrule by the general membership. If your HOA is anything like mine, it wouldn't take too much effort to round up enough folks to sway a vote in your favor.

    TFred

    P.S.... here's an interesting thought... an HOA, as an entity subject to regulation by the state, surely falls under the spirit, if not the letter of preemption... sort of like the Dillon Rule... if HOAs derive their authority from the state, how can they not be ultimately considered a state authority? Yeah, it's a stretch... but there is definitely a direct link between HOAs and State government.
    That P.S. is really an interesting thought. I agree it's a stretch. What might be amusing is to confront them at the next meeting and ask specifically why they would want to ban someone from the means to self-defense. When they give the usual answers, be ready for them and make it personal. Since you've already said it's a woman who confronted you, ask what she would do if someone started shooting children at the pool? Would she rather call 911 and watch them die or have you there?

    You know the drill and the scenarios. If you have a background in the military, LEO, instruction etc. make sure to bring that up. Or, contact one of us and see if we can come and talk to them.

    Dave Vann, ExecutiveMember, VCDL

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    HOA, now that's the problem; or more correctly the kind of people it attracts is the problem.

    It's been my experience that these contemptible busybodies are almost always little old ladies or men from up North who validate themselves by forcing their rules on others.

    Remember, these are the whiners who say vets can't fly the flag, no religious symbol visible even at Christmas, can't have the grandkids over -- the list goes on.

    Why would any rational person expose himself the this kind of petty tyranny?

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    In some areas finding a house without an HOA that can be paid for are difficult to do. I despise HOA's and yet I live where we have one.

    I have yet to have one person e-mail or write me a letter complaining OC

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I am also not a fan of HOA's, but what crazydude6030 wrote is true. Unfortunately.

    While I have not had any problems with them in eleven years (except for a suggestion that I straight my street-side mailbox), you never know what you're going to get with these people.

    I already know what I would do if I were to receive a letter saying something like, "We have received a complaint about your....", with the complaint having been lodged by some idiot homeowner. Mind you, I don't do stupid things with my house or my property - my investment being the issue, not the idiot HOA. Anyway, if I received such a letter, I would write back saying that I would be happy to work this out and would they please supply me with the name and address of the complainant? Of course they would most likely respond that they couldn't do that to which I would respond that until I know who my accuser is, I cannot comply with their demands.

    Under the Sixth Amendment in the Bill of Rights, I have the right to know my accuser. Gotcha.

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    The observation that the state may regulate HOA is on point.

    My experience in another jurisdiction as HOA president is that emendations of the covenant require a unanimous vote of all property owners when it alters their contracts ex post facto.

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Under the Sixth Amendment in the Bill of Rights, I have the right to know my accuser. Gotcha.
    The Bill of Rights restricts what governmental entities can do. It does not restrict private entities. HOAs are private entities.

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    Here's an idea... not sure what kind of neighborhood you're in... etc... As far as I know, they can regulate behavior in the common areas, but are powerless to regulate behavior on your own property... or on the public streets leading to it.

    So I propose you strike a deal with the HOA officer who is unhappy: If he agrees to drop his silly plan to change the rules for the pool, and allow you to OC as you see fit, then you will, in turn, drop your plans to host a weekly Barbecue, at your home, for the entire local OC community! I'm sure that folks would be more than happy to drop by for a few Saturdays, very visibly open carrying, and I bet the OC community would even be more than happy to bring their own food, so as to keep your personal expense down to a minimum. I'm sure that in order to keep the rules on parking, they would have to park in some common lot, and walk a few blocks to your house... but that shouldn't bother the neighbors...

    What a great way this would be to meet other local OCers, and show HOA dude what he can do with his "no OC at the pool" attitude!



    TFred


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    Not a bad plan... Lol. I'd love to see the crime stats in my community after a few weekends of that! Hell, I could even make it a mixer so that all my neighbors are aware of their right to OC.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ikarus wrote:
    Not a bad plan... Lol. I'd love to see the crime stats in my community after a few weekends of that! Hell, I could even make it a mixer so that all my neighbors are aware of their right to OC.
    I just realized, it's a win-win... after a few weeks or months of non-incident gatherings at your home, in full view of your neighbors, you would have ample evidence to present before the HOA annual meeting that OC is a non-issue, and you would likely have support to abolish the new rule.

    From there it's easy to show the HOA directors as liberal reactionaries, out of touch with the real world.

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    Here's an idea... not sure what kind of neighborhood you're in... etc... As far as I know, they can regulate behavior in the common areas, but are powerless to regulate behavior on your own property... or on the public streets leading to it.

    So I propose you strike a deal with the HOA officer who is unhappy: If he agrees to drop his silly plan to change the rules for the pool, and allow you to OC as you see fit, then you will, in turn, drop your plans to host a weekly Barbecue, at your home, for the entire local OC community! I'm sure that folks would be more than happy to drop by for a few Saturdays, very visibly open carrying, and I bet the OC community would even be more than happy to bring their own food, so as to keep your personal expense down to a minimum. I'm sure that in order to keep the rules on parking, they would have to park in some common lot, and walk a few blocks to your house... but that shouldn't bother the neighbors...

    What a great way this would be to meet other local OCers, and show HOA dude what he can do with his "no OC at the pool" attitude!



    TFred
    +1
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    ed wrote:
    ikarus wrote:
    I asked her if it was written anywhere that I couldn't carry and he said no but she and the rest of the board members would look into getting it added.
    The Home Owners elect your BOD to make the rules. If you challenge a rule that does not exist, they will simply create one. Then you are carrying on private property (the association pool) that is forbidden by assiciation rule. If you break the rule, they can call the police and have you tresspassed.. (even if you are one of the owners) because as an OWNER, you elected the BOD.

    It is a slippery slope.. I would love to see somone sue their HOA to prevent this (but suing the HOA is really suing yourself).

    IANAL

    Ed
    Ed,

    I don't know any officer that would enforce HOA rules. Maybe try to mediate the situation, but in reality... it's a civil matter. It would be difficult to prove in court criminal trespass on someone who owns the property.

    I have had many calls from HOA's or apartment management that conveys that someone is in violation to their contract (usually for subleasing reasons). I speak to all involved and explain the civil process/eviction process.

    Ikarus- sounds like you are in a tough spot. I think you should request to sit down with the leaders of your HOA and portray yourself and why you OC. On a side note....do you OC in swim trunks? I could see some of you hard chargers on here OCing down a water slide, haha.

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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    Ikarus- sounds like you are in a tough spot. I think you should request to sit down with the leaders of your HOA and portray yourself and why you OC. On a side note....do you OC in swim trunks? I could see some of you hard chargers on here OCing down a water slide, haha.
    Ha ha, don't they say that Glocks shoot under water?

    TFred

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    Ha. Not that hardcore. I OC'd mostly as an experiment as I usually CC. I was dressed in jeans, a tucked tshirt, and a ball cap. Holster was a CQC. I was there watching my daughters swim practice for about an hour and a half and talked to several people. Noone mentioned the handgun and I only noticed one person look at it briefly. He just glanced at it and had no real reaction after that. The board member in question actually sat on my strong side for the entire practice and said nothing. It wasn't until my daughter and I were walking out, that she came running (literally) out after us and asked me not to carry there again.

    Points for discretion, I guess.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Carpetbagger wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Under the Sixth Amendment in the Bill of Rights, I have the right to know my accuser. Gotcha.
    The Bill of Rights restricts what governmental entities can do. It does not restrict private entities. HOAs are private entities.
    I know that but I would hope that they may not.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Heck set up some dates for a BBQ and some of us newer members can get to meet others face to face while at the same time assisting with this HOA issue.

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    TFred wrote:
    As far as I know, they ... are powerless to regulate behavior on your own property... or on the public streets leading to it.
    Citation please. That's not my experience.

    In re enforcement; I agree that it is a civil matter only and there may be constraints in the covenant. My HOA president, personally, had to bring the action. The HOA could not act as a legal entity.

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    old dog wrote:
    HOA, now that's the problem; or more correctly the kind of people it attracts is the problem.

    It's been my experience that these contemptible busybodies are almost always little old ladies or men from up North who validate themselves by forcing their rules on others.
    Heh. I was fed up with the way my HOA was spending money so I ran and got elected to it. The funny thing is, I'm the most permissive member of the BOD.

    You want to hang a sign? Cool. Want to have more than 5 plants? Cool. The way I see it, what one does in their home is their business. As long as they don't bother anyone.

    It's the old people that always fight against me. It's always "the damn kids" and this and that. I would be absolutely appalled if someone suggesting adding a rule to ban OC. Given that there are only 2 of us on the BOD, they'd need my vote for that.

  25. #25
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    As far as I know, they ... are powerless to regulate behavior on your own property... or on the public streets leading to it.
    Citation please. That's not my experience.

    In re enforcement; I agree that it is a civil matter only and there may be constraints in the covenant. My HOA president, personally, had to bring the action. The HOA could not act as a legal entity.
    Ha, "as far as I know" should be clear to imply that I don't have a cite. If I had a cite, then I would know for sure!

    I'm just thinking that public streets are governed by state and local law. If the HOA said you couldn't park any red cars on a city or county-owned street, how could that be enforced?

    On your property, they do govern things related to maintenance and appearance, but how can they tell you you can't wear a hat or OC a gun, all legal things. State code even says you don't need a permit to carry concealed in your "own place of abode or the curtilage thereof" which is ill-defined, but certainly would be on your property.

    TFred


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