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Thread: Cop Encounter Scenario Rundown

  1. #1
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    I've never had an encounter with the police while OCing here in South Dakota. From the experience and advice of others on the board I've developed a strategy for dealing with an encounter. I would appreciate your constructive criticism.

    I should preface by saying that of course this would be an encounter while I am peacefully and lawfully OCing. Also, SD is a one-party state with regards to audio recording conversations in public places. Lastly, my goal in the encounter would be to end it as quickly as possible while politely and insistently asserting my rights. I understand and accept the "you catch more flies with honey approach," but I am not interested in making friends with the police.

    Officer: Hello, why are you carrying a gun? You can't do that. [Or something similar]
    Me: I don't want to have a conversation/encounter with you. Am I being detained?

    Officer: I don't know yet. [Or no answer] Do you have ID?
    Me: My name is Blahblah, I live in Blahblah City. I do not have ID [I sterile carry when OCing].

    Officer: You shouldn't carry like that. It's wrong/stupid/illegal [etc].
    Me: I invoke my right to remain silent.

    At this point I would remain silent until the Officer released me and went away. If the officer arrested me, I would remain silent until I was able to talk with or be in the presence of a lawyer. Assuming that my behavior has been lawful, no charge brought against me from the incident should bear out in court.



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    Good approach.

    How about saying, "Am I free to go?" and only asking if you are being detained if the answer to that first question is no. In addition to not causing the LEO to shift into the mode of detaining you, that first question uses a sales closing technique. Ask questions where "yes" is the desired answer.

  3. #3
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    Thank you, that's a good point. I would insert "Am I free to go" before "Am I being detained."

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    The only thing I can add is that it seems to help if you throw in some polite softener words. The more the cop feels the weight of his badge, the more important it is to avoid, if possible, frustrating him to the point he decides he needs to teach you a lesson, or teach you who the law really is around these parts.

    "No offense, officer. I know you are probably just doing your job. But, I do not consent..."

    You can also soften a refusal/rejection by verbally throwing it into the future. It means the same thing, but it sounds just that little less direct. "...I would not consent to a search, officer."

    I have personally used these two techniques on a cop to a good result. He got a little exasperated that I wasn't going along with what he wanted, but it didn't turn into a domination or lesson.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
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    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"
    Lol, same experience, different cannon.

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    Officer: Hello, why are you carrying a gun? You can't do that. [Or something similar]
    Me: I don't want to have a conversation/encounter with you.

    right here,, just say good day, turn and walk away.
    no need to ask , detained? free to go?
    you have the right and duty to go on about your business unmolested!

    if he wants to assert his authority, now is the time for him to violate your right to be
    free from unreasonable search and seizures!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    impulse418 wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"
    Lol, same experience, different cannon.
    LOL I've never had a negative police encounter. They've all been very polite and respectful.

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    they wont take me alive

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    impulse418 wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"
    Lol, same experience, different cannon.
    LOL I've never had a negative police encounter. They've all been very polite and respectful.
    My encounter was extremely polite. Just horribly and unconstitutionally wrong!

  11. #11
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    Or go for a more positive scenario.

    (My only LEO-initiated encounter in 6 years.)

    The first cop comes up to our table (a second was in an overwatchposition about 6 feet away): "Excuse me, you guys doing okay?"

    Me: "Yep, we're fine officer."

    Cop: "Well we got a call and I was wondering if anything was going on?"

    Me: "No Sir, just sitting drinking coffee and talking for the last couple of hours."

    Cop: "Do you have concealed carry permits?"

    Me:"I do."I pulled out my DL and handed it to him, followed a couple of minutes later with my permit. The other OC'er with me declined to provide ID but gave the officer his name and DL#. He was sterile carrying.

    We chatted about people calling in that there were men with guns at the location and that they were probably just unaware that Idaho law allows this. He called us in, got back all-clears and life moved on. He seemed calm and at ease, just solid police officers doing their jobs.

    As a taxpayer, I feel they wasted time when they could have been writing tickets or patrolling in the troubled areas of our town but that's the educational curve they need to climb sooner or later. Also, that decision as to tasking is a matter for the politicians and police commanders to address based upon feedback from patrol officers and manpower resources available..

    From my perspective, this encounter shut up any other customers's complaints (there were at least a half-dozen customers and two employees present) and demonstrated that nothing was wrong with two guys openly carrying in a public coffeehouse. I see no value in a public confrontation in this type of setting which contributes to a perception of a problem in the mind of the police and the public.I'm sure though that some others will have a fit that I chose to present my ID and enjoy a pleasantchat with the officer who was just doing his job responding to a MWAG call.

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    Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained? Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be genereal consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to ME it in the instant matter in order for me to know that they are not playing on (my) ignorance and trying to trick (me) into voluntarily surrendering my rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASK if you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasise that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speach patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.

    (caveat: do the research to determine if your state has a clearly defined 'stop and identify' statute. )

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    recorders are your friends.
    Aren't a number of states moving to make recordingcops a felony?

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    eye95 wrote:
    Good approach.

    How about saying, "Am I free to go?" and only asking if you are being detained if the answer to that first question is no. In addition to not causing the LEO to shift into the mode of detaining you, that first question uses a sales closing technique. Ask questions where "yes" is the desired answer.
    That's my lawyer's recommendation for pretty much ANY unsought LEO encounter.

    Do whatever that's REQUIRED by LAW, such as informing if you're carrying concealed, in Ohio, and identifying verbally (or showing CCW credentials, where applicable).

    "Am I free to leave?" - If yes, leave.

    "No? Then I have nothing further to say without an attorney present." - Keep your mouth shut.

    Stick STRICTLY to the letter of the law. The cop might get mad, but that's his problem. Any anger management or control issues he may have are his concern, not yours. Where lawful to do so, carrying and using a voice recording device is a valuable protective measure for you in these situations. It makes "creative writing" exercises by cops an asset for you and a danger to them.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Citizen wrote:
    The only thing I can add is that it seems to help if you throw in some polite softener words.
    Up to you, but I don't do obsequious, especially with people who don't sign my paychecks.

    If he wants to commit a crime or civil tort against me because I follow the letter of the law, let him have at it. Even better that he should lie about it in his written report when I've got an audio recording of what was REALLY said.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    canadian wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    recorders are your friends.
    Aren't a number of states moving to make recordingcops a felony?
    I don't and wouldn't live in any of those states.

    Such a thing is highly constitutionally suspect in any case.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

  17. #17
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    Great comments guys, thanks.

    I don't think my original strategy was far off, but in the future I think I will par it down to:
    "I don't wish to have a conversation with you. Am I free to go?"

    If No

    "I invoke my right to remain silent. I won't speak further without the presence of my attorney."



  18. #18
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    Actual open carry encounter in Anchorage:

    Officer: "Is that a Wilson?"

    Me: "Yes it is."

    Officer: "I have a Kimber myself, but on-duty I have to carry a Glock."

    Me: "Sucks to be you!" (With a disarming smile.)

    Officer: "You got that right! You going through Campbell Creek Park?"

    Me: "Yes."

    Officer: "Well, be careful. Guy got mauled by a brownie (grizzly bear) yesterday. You might think about something more powerful."

    Me: "I thought about that, but I'm worried about what might happen to the round if I miss."

    Officer: "That's true. Well, do whatever you think is best. Be careful. Enjoy your hike."

    I LOVE LIVING IN ALASKA! :celebrate


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    Cavalryman wrote:
    Me: "I thought about that, but I'm worried about what might happen to the round if I miss."
    How do you miss a grizzly bear? they are like 8 feet tall and 1200 pounds!

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    Deanimator wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    The only thing I can add is that it seems to help if you throw in some polite softener words.
    Up to you, but I don't do obsequious, especially with people who don't sign my paychecks.
    It definitely goes against the grain. After long consideration, I decided that some cops are sufficiently psycho that I want all the advantage on my side that I can get. All it takes is a false arrest that discovers the voice-recorder, and it is back to his word against mine.

    Since I can't tell at the outset how sensitive the cop will be, I'm gonna throw in the polite stuff.

    Plus, if he does get out of line, my politeness will stand in stark relief against his misbehavior. What really drove that home for me was that audio during the election of the Ron Paul rep who TSA detained. His politeness was a giant counter-point that really highlighted the TSA stooges' misbehavior.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
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    canadian wrote:
    Cavalryman wrote:
    Me: "I thought about that, but I'm worried about what might happen to the round if I miss."
    How do you miss a grizzly bear? they are like 8 feet tall and 1200 pounds!
    Yes they are, and I probably wouldn't miss, but there are a lot of people in Campbell Creek Park and I've never practiced firing a handgun while simultaneously pooping my pants!

  22. #22
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    Cavalryman wrote:
    Actual open carry encounter in Anchorage:

    Officer: "Is that a Wilson?"

    Me: "Yes it is."

    Officer: "I have a Kimber myself, but on-duty I have to carry a Glock."

    Me: "Sucks to be you!" (With a disarming smile.)

    Officer: "You got that right! You going through Campbell Creek Park?"

    Me: "Yes."

    Officer: "Well, be careful. Guy got mauled by a brownie (grizzly bear) yesterday. You might think about something more powerful."

    Me: "I thought about that, but I'm worried about what might happen to the round if I miss."

    Officer: "That's true. Well, do whatever you think is best. Be careful. Enjoy your hike."

    I LOVE LIVING IN ALASKA! :celebrate
    I just started open carrying in anchorage, still havent meet a LEO, did get this girl bitching at me, at quiznos on southside. still need to write that letter in to there comp a bout that >.<
    Code:
    (20) "defensive weapon" means an electric stun gun, or a device to dispense mace or a similar chemical agent, that is not designed to cause death or serious physical injury;

  23. #23
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    Cavalryman wrote:
    I've never practiced firing a handgun while simultaneously pooping my pants!
    Well that sounds like a glaring hole in your training!

    Then again, I can't imagine too many shooting ranges that would be impressed with you if you tried it...

  24. #24
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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    impulse418 wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"
    Lol, same experience, different cannon.
    LOL I've never had a negative police encounter. They've all been very polite and respectful.
    Maybe because they all know you come from an LEO family.......lol.

    Hang out with me sometime......LOL.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    impulse418 wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Officer: "Nice Ruger! 9mm?"

    Me: "Thanks! Indeed it is!"
    Lol, same experience, different cannon.
    LOL I've never had a negative police encounter. They've all been very polite and respectful.
    Maybe because they all know you come from an LEO family.......lol.

    Hang out with me sometime......LOL.
    LOL Nah, they don't know that. Most cops don't know me from Billy Bob, but a hand full of the ones at Kent and Seattle know me, considering those are the two departments where I've got friends and family.

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