Belle Meade delays vote on firearms ordinance banning guns 6-16-2010

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By not amending their current valid ordinance they are in effect stating that the City is in agreement that open carry of the army or navy pistol in the hand is the lawful manner.

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I found this on another site...
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http://www.paxparabellum.com/2010/03/tennessee-handgun-carry-belle-meade.html

Wednesday, March 17, 2010 Tennessee Handgun Carry: Belle Meade Still Honors Permit Posted by Steve in TN #tnguns .
After going around the horn of argument with several other permit holders about the Belle Meade City Ordinance (2010-2) Belle Meade acted on today and reading the differing reports of what it means, I decided to go to the "horse's mouth" and phoned the Belle Meade PD. The person* answering the phone affirmed what I and others thought: This has nothing to do with Handgun Permits and Belle Meade PD will honor valid permits as they always have. (*The officer answering the phone gave his name and permission to be quoted but I'll keep his name out of this public forum.)

The issue is about the old way the ordinance was worded that allowed - and, in fact, mandated as the only carry allowed - carry "in open hand" of 19th century style black powder "Army and Navy" pistols. The new wording strips this from the city ordinance. This was brought to the fore by the actions of Leonard Embody that we wrote about earlier here and here.

So, despite the email sent by NRA-ILA, Belle Meade has not banned Handgun Permit holders from exercising their self defense rights in their city.

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RussP wrote:

I found this on another site...
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http://www.paxparabellum.com/2010/03/tennessee-handgun-carry-belle-meade.html

Wednesday, March 17, 2010 Tennessee Handgun Carry: Belle Meade Still Honors Permit Posted by Steve in TN #tnguns .
After going around the horn of argument with several other permit holders about the Belle Meade City Ordinance (2010-2) Belle Meade acted on today and reading the differing reports of what it means, I decided to go to the "horse's mouth" and phoned the Belle Meade PD. The person* answering the phone affirmed what I and others thought: This has nothing to do with Handgun Permits and Belle Meade PD will honor valid permits as they always have. (*The officer answering the phone gave his name and permission to be quoted but I'll keep his name out of this public forum.)

The issue is about the old way the ordinance was worded that allowed - and, in fact, mandated as the only carry allowed - carry "in open hand" of 19th century style black powder "Army and Navy" pistols. The new wording strips this from the city ordinance. This was brought to the fore by the actions of Leonard Embody that we wrote about earlier here and here.

So, despite the email sent by NRA-ILA, Belle Meade has not banned Handgun Permit holders from exercising their self defense rights in their city.

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I'm going by the official city ordinance 11-602 which prohibits the carry of all pistols except the army or navy which must be carried openly in the hand.

To my knowledge city law is not made by an unkown source which is quoted by an internet blogger.

Belle Meade has not banned handguns yet. Proposed 2010-2 amends the current ordinance to prohibit all pistols. If it passes Belle Meade will have bannedthe carry of gunsin their city.

I had hoped my presence would have urged them into action, but it did not. :lol:

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The one thing missing in this whole "drama" of yours is support. You never have answered whether any of the state organizations offered legal or financial aid for your numerous law suits.

Were there any other permit holders there at the Belle Meade meeting?

Are you questioning the truth of the statement from Belle Meade PD? Did you ever call them and ask if they arrest people carrying concealed or openly with an HCP? Seems like a simple thing to do.

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RussP wrote:

The one thing missing in this whole "drama" of yours is support. You never have answered whether any of the state organizations offered legal or financial aid for your numerous law suits.

Were there any other permit holders there at the Belle Meade meeting?

Are you questioning the truth of the statement from Belle Meade PD? Did you ever call them and ask if they arrest people carrying concealed or openly with an HCP? Seems like a simple thing to do.

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You don't seem to understand how the system works. Cops do not make the law, they are to enforce the ordinances which are passed by the board of commissioners.

Cops are under no obligation to tell the truth, they frequently lie. Belle Meade police don't know the ordinances of their city. Therefore, it is a bad idea to rely on any statement from any Belle Meade cop.

If you read this forum you'll find numerous experiences of open carriers who are harrassed because cops don't know the law, they don't care about the law, they have their own agenda, they are ordered to disobey the law, etc. You expect me to believe the statement of a cop is stronger than a written law?

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audio

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kwikrnu wrote:

audio

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Would you transcribe that audio, please. Of special interest is the statement by the woman citing one reason to defer is to make certain the language in the ordinance complies with state law. You know the part, right?

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RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

audio

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Would you transcribe that audio, please. Of special interest is the statement by the woman citing one reason to defer is to make certain the language in the ordinance complies with state law. You know the part, right?

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The City has attorneys on retainer who could change the language in a few minutes. In fact an attorney is present at each board meeting. There has been no attempt over the last few months to change the language of the proposed ordinance. They are simply waiting to see what happens in McDonald. In the wait they are condoning the current law, which is open carry in the hand of the army or navy pistol. The current law complies with State law.

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Regardless of whether or not they amend their current Ordinance..., they still highlight the fact that Open Carry is Legal. The only difference is that Open Carriers will now need Tennessee Handgun Permits to Openly Carry Handguns, including the Army and Navy Pistols, under their current Ordinance.

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kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

audio

Click to expand...

Would you transcribe that audio, please. Of special interest is the statement by the woman citing one reason to defer is to make certain the language in the ordinance complies with state law. You know the part, right?

Click to expand...

The City has attorneys on retainer who could change the language in a few minutes. In fact an attorney is present at each board meeting. There has been no attempt over the last few months to change the language of the proposed ordinance. They are simply waiting to see what happens in McDonald. In the wait they are condoning the current law, which is open carry in the hand of the army or navy pistol. The current law complies with State law.

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So you acknowledge and agree that the City does in fact intend for the City Ordinance to reflect state law.

The real reason for the delay must then be to wait on the SCOTUS ruling on McDonald. That makes sense. Lots of communities are doing that.

Condoning? I believe the statements from City officials and employees indicate they are not condoning the old law, but have all intentions of acting under State law.

Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?

Is there a volunteer to do that?

Leonard, how about you doing that?

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RussP wrote:

The one thing missing in this whole "drama" of yours is support. You never have answered whether any of the state organizations offered legal or financial aid for your numerous law suits.

Were there any other permit holders there at the Belle Meade meeting?...

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You missed this part of the post, Leonard.

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RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

audio

Click to expand...

Would you transcribe that audio, please. Of special interest is the statement by the woman citing one reason to defer is to make certain the language in the ordinance complies with state law. You know the part, right?

Click to expand...

The City has attorneys on retainer who could change the language in a few minutes. In fact an attorney is present at each board meeting. There has been no attempt over the last few months to change the language of the proposed ordinance. They are simply waiting to see what happens in McDonald. In the wait they are condoning the current law, which is open carry in the hand of the army or navy pistol. The current law complies with State law.

Click to expand...

So you acknowledge and agree that the City does in fact intend for the City Ordinance to reflect state law.

The real reason for the delay must then be to wait on the SCOTUS ruling on McDonald. That makes sense. Lots of communities are doing that.

Condoning? I believe the statements from City officials and employees indicate they are not condoning the old law, but have all intentions of acting under State law.

Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?

Is there a volunteer to do that?

Leonard, how about you doing that?

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The city ordinance as it exists is not in conflict with any State law.

Statements are not law.

If the commisioners don't want people carrying army or navy pistolsd in the hand then why haven't they passed a new ordinance?

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kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

audio

Click to expand...

Would you transcribe that audio, please. Of special interest is the statement by the woman citing one reason to defer is to make certain the language in the ordinance complies with state law. You know the part, right?

Click to expand...

The City has attorneys on retainer who could change the language in a few minutes. In fact an attorney is present at each board meeting. There has been no attempt over the last few months to change the language of the proposed ordinance. They are simply waiting to see what happens in McDonald. In the wait they are condoning the current law, which is open carry in the hand of the army or navy pistol. The current law complies with State law.

Click to expand...

So you acknowledge and agree that the City does in fact intend for the City Ordinance to reflect state law.

The real reason for the delay must then be to wait on the SCOTUS ruling on McDonald. That makes sense. Lots of communities are doing that.

Condoning? I believe the statements from City officials and employees indicate they are not condoning the old law, but have all intentions of acting under State law.

Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?

Is there a volunteer to do that?

Leonard, how about you doing that?

Click to expand...

The city ordinance as it exists is not in conflict with any State law.

Statements are not law.

If the commisioners don't want people carrying army or navy pistolsd in the hand then why haven't they passed a new ordinance?

Click to expand...

You answer a lot of questions, Leonard, but none that are asked of you.

The question was not, "Is the existing ordinance in conflict with State law."

The question is, "Does the City of Belle Meade intend the new ordinance to reflect State law?" That is a yes/no question.

Lets try the other question worded a little differently, "Do you believe Belle Meade police will cite an HCP holder for carrying a holstered handgun while walking in the median of Belle Meade Blvd?" That is a yes/no question.

Here is another question. "Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?" Again, it can be answered with either a yes or a no.

Another question is, "Leonard, are you willing to call Belle Meade PD and ask that question?"

And, "Have any State, Regional or National gun rights, 2nd Amendment, open carry advocate groups offered you legal or financial aid fighting your civil rights cases?"

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RussP wrote:

You answer a lot of questions, Leonard, but none that are asked of you.

The question was not, "Is the existing ordinance in conflict with State law."

The question is, "Does the City of Belle Meade intend the new ordinance to reflect State law?" That is a yes/no question.

Lets try the other question worded a little differently, "Do you believe Belle Meade police will cite an HCP holder for carrying a holstered handgun while walking in the median of Belle Meade Blvd?" That is a yes/no question.

Here is another question. "Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?" Again, it can be answered with either a yes or a no.

Another question is, "Leonard, are you willing to call Belle Meade PD and ask that question?"

And, "Have any State, Regional or National gun rights, 2nd Amendment, open carry advocate groups offered you legal or financial aid fighting your civil rights cases?"

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It is against the law in the City of Belle Meade to carry any pistol, in any manner, with the intent to go armed,save thethe army or navy openly in the hand. Until you understand that fact there is nothing to talk about.

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kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

You answer a lot of questions, Leonard, but none that are asked of you.

The question was not, "Is the existing ordinance in conflict with State law."

The question is, "Does the City of Belle Meade intend the new ordinance to reflect State law?" That is a yes/no question.

Lets try the other question worded a little differently, "Do you believe Belle Meade police will cite an HCP holder for carrying a holstered handgun while walking in the median of Belle Meade Blvd?" That is a yes/no question.

Here is another question. "Would you like another OCDO member who is a resident of Belle Meade, or a neighboring community, to call them and get a statement as to how Belle Meade PD would respond to seeing a citizen walking with a holstered firearm?" Again, it can be answered with either a yes or a no.

Another question is, "Leonard, are you willing to call Belle Meade PD and ask that question?"

And, "Have any State, Regional or National gun rights, 2nd Amendment, open carry advocate groups offered you legal or financial aid fighting your civil rights cases?"

Click to expand...

It is against the law in the City of Belle Meade to carry any pistol, in any manner, with the intent to go armed,save thethe army or navy openly in the hand. Until you understand that fact there is nothing to talk about.

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Oh, I have no misunderstanding about what the law saws.

Now, how about answering the questions.

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RussP wrote:

Oh, I have no misunderstanding about what the law saws.

Now, how about answering the questions.

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Belle Meade doesn't care if their ordinance reflects State law. If they cared all they would have to do is add a provisionexcepting those authorized by TCA 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun. It is a simple change. They are waiting until the heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban.

I will not ask Belle Meade PD their opinion on the ordinance or if they will arrest someone carrying a holstered handgun. The opinion of an ignorantcop is worthless in court.

People have offered money, I have no need of it. I've taken this on and will resolve it myself.

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kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

Oh, I have no misunderstanding about what the law saws.

Now, how about answering the questions.

Click to expand...

Belle Meade doesn't care if their ordinance reflects State law. If they cared all they would have to do is add a provisionexcepting those authorized by TCA 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun. It is a simple change. They are waiting until the heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban.

I will not ask Belle Meade PD their opinion on the ordinance or if they will arrest someone carrying a holstered handgun. The opinion of an ignorantcop is worthless in court.

People have offered money, I have no need of it. I've taken this on and will resolve it myself.

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So the statement by the female commissioner in the audio that they want the language to reflect State law is a lie? Who was that commissioner?

Are you saying that they will not change the ordinance after the "heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban"?

Okay, don't ask the PD. Will you ask the City Attorney, the DA, the AG if they will prosecute anyone found carrying a holstered handgun? Now a statement from them will carry weight in court. Will you ask them?

How about another OCDO member in the Nashville area, do you want them to ask for you?

People? Usually there are threads about such generosity. Did I miss them?

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RussP wrote:

So the statement by the female commissioner in the audio that they want the language to reflect State law is a lie? Who was that commissioner?

Are you saying that they will not change the ordinance after the "heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban"?

Okay, don't ask the PD. Will you ask the City Attorney, the DA, the AG if they will prosecute anyone found carrying a holstered handgun? Now a statement from them will carry weight in court. Will you ask them?

How about another OCDO member in the Nashville area, do you want them to ask for you?

People? Usually there are threads about such generosity. Did I miss them?

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I think it was the mayor who made that statement. If they wanted to change the language they could have done so in about 30 seconds not three months.

I can't predict what those clowns will do.

The DA and AG don't give opinions to citizens. The city attorney is a private contracted entity and does not issue opinions to citizens, nor are they under any obligation to disclose any opinion given to the city. I have attempted, throught a foia, to get opinions issue to the city but they refuse.

Case law proves that open carry in the hand is a constitutional law. People have been fined and sent to jail when they have carried other than the army navy and when it is not carried openly in the hand.

This is a valid law, and no amount of your silly, ask the dog catcher if he'll give a statement, will change that.

Yes RussP, people.

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RussP wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

RussP wrote:

Oh, I have no misunderstanding about what the law saws.

Now, how about answering the questions.

Click to expand...

Belle Meade doesn't care if their ordinance reflects State law. If they cared all they would have to do is add a provisionexcepting those authorized by TCA 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun. It is a simple change. They are waiting until the heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban.

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Are you saying that they will not change the ordinance after the "heat dies down from the NRA-ILA press release of their proposed gun ban"?

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You say, "They are waiting until the heat dies down..." You imply you have some insight. Why are they waiting?

Belle Meade commissioners meet this afternoon 7-21-10 and decided to delay the vote on ordinance 2010-2 another month. That is the one which would ban all guns in the city. This ordinance was introduced in February and passed upon first reading. Now we're going on six months and it hasn't passed second reading. I wonder why the commissioners got shy about banning guns?

Here is a link to the proposed ordinance.