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Thread: Louisville Metro PD Officers' off duty restrictions..

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    No I have nothing to cite.. but this comes first hand from a buddy of mine who is a 6+ year LMPD veteran.. He said according to Dept Policy.. They are not allowed to OC OFF DUTY...

    WTF?

    -Adam

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    Regarding Louisville, if memory serves, they are required to carry off-duty.

    This is not Louisville, but my agency.

    B. Officers are not required to be armed while OFF DUTY. If a firearm is carried off duty, under the umbrella of police authority (as opposed to as a citizen with a CCDW permit), the following guidelines will be followed:
    1. The firearm shall be concealed at all times when in public, or when one could reasonably expect to encounter non-enforcement personnel, except at Headquarters or at home.
    2. The badge and police identification card shall be in the officer’s possession at all times, except at home.
    3. Off duty officers who consume alcohol or plan to consume alcohol shall not be armed.
    ----

    If I want to OC, I would have to put the badge away and make no claim of being an officer. At least that's my read on it. I find that it is interesting that the only alternative to carrying as an officer is carrying under concealed permit. Open carry is not really addressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriegsammler View Post
    No I have nothing to cite.. but this comes first hand from a buddy of mine who is a 6+ year LMPD veteran.. He said according to Dept Policy.. They are not allowed to OC OFF DUTY...

    WTF?

    -Adam
    Although my deptartment doesn't have this restriction, it is common among LEAs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoriz View Post
    Regarding Louisville, if memory serves, they are required to carry off-duty.

    This is not Louisville, but my agency.

    B. Officers are not required to be armed while OFF DUTY. If a firearm is carried off duty, under the umbrella of police authority (as opposed to as a citizen with a CCDW permit), the following guidelines will be followed:
    1. The firearm shall be concealed at all times when in public, or when one could reasonably expect to encounter non-enforcement personnel, except at Headquarters or at home.
    2. The badge and police identification card shall be in the officer’s possession at all times, except at home.
    3. Off duty officers who consume alcohol or plan to consume alcohol shall not be armed.
    ----

    If I want to OC, I would have to put the badge away and make no claim of being an officer. At least that's my read on it. I find that it is interesting that the only alternative to carrying as an officer is carrying under concealed permit. Open carry is not really addressed.
    It appears that any carry off-duty MUST be concealed, and this is under the "permission" of LE authority, as opposed to concealed under the "permission" of a carry permit.
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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Policy

    It is departmental policy only. If your department doesn't have a rule about OCing, you can. If there is policy forbidding it, I would say you have a good cause if you were fired for violating the policy. Don't think anyone can write a policy that would be a threat to the Commonwealth's constitution. Just out loud thinking, people sue business' all the time for violating the constitution, so how can a police department, of all things, be exempt?
    Last edited by hotrod; 07-24-2010 at 12:24 PM.

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    I am Uncertain about LMPD, but i do know shivley PD can and do carry OC and CC.
    or at lest my neighbor does and he is a sergent in that particular department. He OC's everywhere he goes off duty. I had a conversation with him about OC, he never told me to OC or not OC just said i could be stop and or arrested for DC. now weather it would stick or not who knows but it is a possiblility, how ever very unlikely unless someone called in a complaint. It has not or will not stop me from OC'ing. They cant not protect me 24/7 nor would i ever exspect them to or be able to. it's not there job, they have enough to do as it is.
    Last edited by KRM59; 07-24-2010 at 02:16 PM. Reason: spell check is a blessing
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    So, you live next to Tim?

    Or is it the daywork sergeant...can't remember his name.

    As far as being charged with DC - it wouldn't stick and you'd have a good case for damages against the department. I know for a fact that LMPD has had training on OC and the legalities of it - a friend of mine is a lieutenant over there.

    And yeah, my agency has the same policy - if we carry off duty, we must conceal the weapon. Now, LMPD's policy goes a step further and plainly states that having a CCDW permit doesn't relieve the officer of following the rules in their policy (no open carry off duty). I'd think that would be a good court challenge, but no one really cares enough.

    And really - who wants to OC when CC is so easy to do? I don't like people knowing I'm an officer when I'm out and about with the family. I've only had one real problem when off duty with a guy that recognized me, and thankfully, he backed off. Wasn't that much of an issue, but I think it had the potential to be one - guy recognized me from work, followed us out of the restaurant, right toward my truck. I had noticed him eying me inside, and saw him get up right after we did. Got the wife's attention, she herded the kids into the truck, while I performed what I lovingly call the eye-f**k and watched him. He seemed to realize he didn't need anything outside after all, and went back in. Coulda been a coincidence, but my trouble-sensor was pinging hard during the whole thing. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that one stucks out. I've been recognized several times off duty and out of uniform, but this guy had a vibe going.

    In any case, I don't do anything off duty that might help someone mark me as an officer. The occasional FOP t-shirt, but only when everything else is dirty. Open carrying would be like saying "Hey, I'm an officer"...at least, to me.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "In any case, I don't do anything off duty that might help someone mark me as an officer. The occasional FOP t-shirt, but only when everything else is dirty. Open carrying would be like saying "Hey, I'm an officer"...at least, to me."

    Why would it say that about you and not some non-cop OCing? I agree with CCing generally making more sense, and the Federal Agents I know or work with must CC at all times. Just curious what outside of OC would make you think you'd, personally, be made?

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    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    "In any case, I don't do anything off duty that might help someone mark me as an officer. The occasional FOP t-shirt, but only when everything else is dirty. Open carrying would be like saying "Hey, I'm an officer"...at least, to me."

    Why would it say that about you and not some non-cop OCing? I agree with CCing generally making more sense, and the Federal Agents I know or work with must CC at all times. Just curious what outside of OC would make you think you'd, personally, be made?
    Gunslinger, the same reasons other non-sworn citizen carriers are mistaken for LE. Demeanor is one. Projecting confidence is a part of that. Clothes are another. Then there's the haircut, and that could be just a well trimmed cut, not a buzz cut. Add a sidearm to that and all of a sudden people mistake you for LE.

    I have been mistaken for LE many times, by cops, while open carrying. I've met some great guys that way.

    However, when I socialize with cops, I do not open carry. Like wprebeck said, it might draw the attention of some bad guy with a grudge who might not match the face with prior encounters, but add a gun to the picture and it might jog their memory.
    Last edited by RussP; 08-03-2010 at 02:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussP View Post
    Gunslinger, the same reasons other non-sworn citizen carriers are mistaken for LE. Demeanor is one. Projecting confidence is a part of that. Clothes are another. Then there's the haircut, and that could be just a well trimmed cut, not a buzz cut. Add a sidearm to that and all of a sudden people mistake you for LE.

    I have been mistaken for LE many times, by cops, while open carrying. I've met some great guys that way.

    However, when I socialize with cops, I do not open carry. Like wprebeck said, it might draw the attention of some bad guy with a grudge who might not match the face with prior encounters, but add a gun to the picture and it might jog their memory.
    I have found that guns make bad guys run.

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    Regular Member RussP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    I have found that guns make bad guys run.
    On occasions that's been my experience, too.

    But a guy who's done time and wants revenge, whole different motivation and reaction.
    Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

  12. #12
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Haven't seen it happen, guess it could

    Quote Originally Posted by RussP View Post
    On occasions that's been my experience, too.

    But a guy who's done time and wants revenge, whole different motivation and reaction.
    I have never seen it happen. Can't remember it ever happening. Shooting, stabbing or otherwise assaulting a LEO usually calls down the thunder. Especially if it's retalitory in nature. If they have the cajones to do that, you carrying openly isn't going to deter or effect the situation.

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
    So, you live next to Tim?

    Or is it the daywork sergeant...can't remember his name.

    As far as being charged with DC - it wouldn't stick and you'd have a good case for damages against the department. I know for a fact that LMPD has had training on OC and the legalities of it - a friend of mine is a lieutenant over there.

    And yeah, my agency has the same policy - if we carry off duty, we must conceal the weapon. Now, LMPD's policy goes a step further and plainly states that having a CCDW permit doesn't relieve the officer of following the rules in their policy (no open carry off duty). I'd think that would be a good court challenge, but no one really cares enough.

    And really - who wants to OC when CC is so easy to do? I don't like people knowing I'm an officer when I'm out and about with the family. I've only had one real problem when off duty with a guy that recognized me, and thankfully, he backed off. Wasn't that much of an issue, but I think it had the potential to be one - guy recognized me from work, followed us out of the restaurant, right toward my truck. I had noticed him eying me inside, and saw him get up right after we did. Got the wife's attention, she herded the kids into the truck, while I performed what I lovingly call the eye-f**k and watched him. He seemed to realize he didn't need anything outside after all, and went back in. Coulda been a coincidence, but my trouble-sensor was pinging hard during the whole thing. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that one stucks out. I've been recognized several times off duty and out of uniform, but this guy had a vibe going.

    In any case, I don't do anything off duty that might help someone mark me as an officer. The occasional FOP t-shirt, but only when everything else is dirty. Open carrying would be like saying "Hey, I'm an officer"...at least, to me.
    Yes Sir,
    that would be Tim. Good Guy and a good friend. i do ride alongs with him from time to time.
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
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    I've known Tim for a few years - my best friend (outside of my wife) works under Tim on midwatch. Tell Senor Crawford I said hello....my name ought not to be too awful hard to figure out. PM me if you can't.

    I've even been by Tim's house a few times, when he was doing the motorcycle escorts a few years ago. My buddy worked at my current agency, before going over to Shively, back then and rode the bikes for Tim. He'd have to go get a different bike, so I'd drive him over there and drop him off.

    But yeah, Tim's a helluva guy. Knows his guns, too.

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    He sure does know his weapons. the lucky stiff was given a M-16 pre forward assist now how lucky can ya get lol
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
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