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Thread: proper car removal of firearm

  1. #1
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    when up at the seymour picnic i noticed several people securing their weapons from the car .........meaning the case was on the seat while they were loading and putting a holster on................now if law enforcement or dnr would see this, things could get dicey ............the case MUST be removed COMPLETLY from the vehicle.............in other words take it out and put it on the ground, then go through the loading and holster thing

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    I set mine on the flat part where my trunk lid closes, it seems to me that it is completely outside the vehicle, maybe i'm wrong though.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    The case cannot be inside or touch the car. So, the legal way is to take the case out, cradle it in your arm, open it and remove firearm. Only AFTER the firearm is out of the case can the case go back in the car. So, to recap, if the case is open and the firearm is inside and the case is inside or touching, you are concealed.

    I believe part of the law is used when hunters lean their rifles against their vehicles. DNR can and will issue ticket.

  4. #4
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    i dance the dance; put it on the ground, open up, grab prescious, slap the mag in, and into the holster, other one in the back pocket if deemed necessary, close case, drop back where it came from. boogie on. reverse to put away. works for me.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    I leave the house with the holster already on.

    I remove the case completely. Open the case, and retrieve the firearm. I toss the case on the driver seat. Then I insert the mag, chamber the round, and holster.

    Upon returning to the vehicle, I unholster, drop the mag, rack the slide. Then take the case off the seat, place firearm in case, close case and place in vehicle.

    As legal as it gets.

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    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    I believe part of the law is used when hunters lean their rifles against their vehicles. DNR can and will issue ticket.
    I believe you are correct Paul, you can lean your firearm against (rifle is what they wrote the law for) but you cannot place it on the vehicle. Hopefully after November we can start to lobby the lawmakers and maybe we can fix all this crap.

    Arms transportation:
    • All firearms must be unloaded and completely enclosed within carrying cases designed
    to carry a firearm when in or on any vehicle whether moving or stationary.
    A holster is not a legal carrying case for a handgun unless it completely encloses
    the handgun. All firearms must be unloaded when in or on any motor driven boat
    while the motor is running.


    (Red text was emphasized in original PDF from the DNR but didn't stand out so I made it red.)

    Reading that text does that mean I can have an unloaded and un-encased firearm in my holster on my boat while driving? Pirates, just saying....

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    Well, it used to be that ALL firearms had to be unloaded and encased while in a motor driven boat. To appease the duck hunters, the rule was relaxed to only be unloaded while in a motor driven boat while the motor is running. I bet they (the DNR) never considered someone would want to have a handgun in a boat. It sure seems like having an unloaded handgun in a motor driven boat is a possibility. I suppose we should ask 10 game wardens and see if they all agree.

    A new summertime past-time - OCn while muskie fishing - load, cast - unload, motor around to find new spot- stop motor, load, cast -unload.......

    oh, be sure to wear a life vest


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    I looked up the statutefor transporting a firearm in boat and found that based on the wording, I can have a holstered handgun in a boat as long as it is unloaded 167.31(2)(a). Compare the wording of 167.31(2)(A) to 167.31(2)(B) transporting a firearm in a boat vs. transporting a firearm in a vehicle, had they intended to require the firearm to be encased while being transported in a boat, the language in 167.31(2)(b) would be the same in 167.31(2)(a) and state "unless the firearm is unloaded and encased". Becausethe languageis different, I believe that it is legal to transport a firearm in a boat in your holster as long as it is unloaded.




    167.31(2)(a)
    (a) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a motorboat with the motor running, unless the firearm is unloaded or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.


    167.31(2)(b)
    (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.Don

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    Ok so what if you are in the car parked (lets say the car is broke down) and someone or a group of someones come to your car and threatens you and the wife. Your doors are locked so they cant get in but one of the gangbangers takes out a crowbar and starts whacking at your door window.

    Are you allowed to open gun case, load firearm and neutralize gangbanger( not necessarily discharging the weapon but maybe if needed) Is that outside the scope of the law?

    And the same question in a boat can you load the holstered unloaded weapon and use it for personal safety?

    Even if it could be unlawful I would not hesitate to protect my family and then pay the piper.Maybe I need a dashcam also.

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    Nimmer wrote:
    Ok so what if you are in the car parked (lets say the car is broke down) and someone or a group of someones come to your car and threatens you and the wife. Your doors are locked so they cant get in but one of the gangbangers takes out a crowbar and starts whacking at your door window.

    Are you allowed to open gun case, load firearm and neutralize gangbanger( not necessarily discharging the weapon but maybe if needed) Is that outside the scope of the law?

    And the same question in a boat can you load the holstered unloaded weapon and use it for personal safety?

    Even if it could be unlawful I would not hesitate to protect my family and then pay the piper.Maybe I need a dashcam also.
    My take, and remember, I am NOT a lawyer.

    If they are beating your windows with a crow bar, and flashing the firearm STOPS the crime, I don't think you should be charged.

    In the Heller decision, the SCOTUS opined,
    They are akin to modern penalties for minor public-safety infractions like speeding or jaywalking. And although such public-safety laws may not contain exceptions for self-defense, it is inconceivable that the threat of a jaywalking ticket would deter someone from disregarding a “Do Not Walk” sign in order to flee an attacker, or that the Government would enforce those laws under such circumstances. Likewise, we do not think that a law imposing a 5-shilling fine and forfeiture of the gun would have prevented a person in the founding era from using a gun to protect himself or his family from violence, or that if he did so the law would be enforced against him.
    In my layman's opinion, if you were justified to threaten/use lethal force then the lesser offenses would also be justified because as the SCOTUS stated, "we do not think that a law imposing a 5-shilling fine and forfeiture of the gun would have prevented a person in the founding era from using a gun to protect himself or his family from violence, or that if he did so the law would be enforced against him"

    and remember, I am NOT a lawyer, this is NOT legal advice.


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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Nimmer wrote:
    Ok so what if you are in the car parked (lets say the car is broke down) and someone or a group of someones come to your car and threatens you and the wife. Your doors are locked so they cant get in but one of the gangbangers takes out a crowbar and starts whacking at your door window.

    Are you allowed to open gun case,* load firearm and neutralize gangbanger( not necessarily discharging the weapon but maybe if needed) Is that outside the scope of the law?

    And the same question in a boat can you load the holstered unloaded weapon and use it for personal safety?

    Even if it could be unlawful I would not hesitate to protect my family and then pay the piper.Maybe I need a dashcam also.
    Short answer is no. But as you said, would you rather be dead and legal or alive and illegal?

    A fair amount of towns/cities/villages do not prohibit open carry but make discharge of a firearm within city/village/town limits illegal or within a certain distance of an occupied dwelling. So, no matter what you might get charged with something.

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    Ok so what if you are in the car parked (lets say the car is broke down) and someone or a group of someones come to your car and threatens you and the wife. Your doors are locked so they cant get in but one of the gangbangers takes out a crowbar and starts whacking at your door window. Are you allowed to open gun case, load firearm and neutralize gangbanger( not necessarily discharging the weapon but maybe if needed) Is that outside the scope of the law?
    I'm to old to wrestle with anybody and my boxing days are 40 years ago. In your scenario I would most likely be arrested for anything that I would do because when it comes to surviving and protecting my family there are no rules and no laws and no boundaries. Do what you gotta do, there is plenty of time for paperwork later.

    Why do they call me Grumpy, I have a pretty smile?
    Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA

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    Nimmer wrote:
    Are you allowed to open gun case, load firearm and neutralize gangbanger( not necessarily discharging the weapon but maybe if needed) Is that outside the scope of the law?

    And the same question in a boat can you load the holstered unloaded weapon and use it for personal safety?
    In WI, since the right to bear arms is in our State Constitution you have an affirmative defense to such silly Statutes and an overly zealous LEO citing you if you were to legitimately utilize your weapon in self defense such as your hypothetical scenerio. Once again, you will likely beat the rap but you may not beat the ride.

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    In WI, since the right to bear arms is in our State Constitution you have an affirmative defense to such silly Statutes
    Thank you counselor. I think you don't know whereof you lecture.

    FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE
    Rule 8. General Rules of Pleading
    [ ... ]
    (c) Affirmative Defenses.
    (1) In General. In responding to a pleading, a party must
    affirmatively state any avoidance or affirmative defense,
    including:
    • accord and satisfaction;
    • arbitration and award;
    • assumption of risk;
    • contributory negligence;
    • discharge in bankruptcy;
    • duress;
    • estoppel;
    • failure of consideration;
    • fraud;
    • illegality;
    • injury by fellow servant;
    • laches;
    • license;
    • payment;
    • release;
    • res judicata;
    • statute of frauds;
    • statute of limitations; and
    • waiver.

    Or if that excerpt from FRCP isn't concise enough, Wisconsin Statutes Chapters 801 - 807 are Wisconsin's rules for civil procedure, available here http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/Statutes.html



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    Affirmative defenses do seem a bit beyond what a layperson might be knowledgeable of.

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    Do you know that our owner/moderators are studying the law, I don't know just what level or specialty.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Even you can't be that daft Doug.....

    I am certain that it is not necessary to point out the case law which is brought up in nearly every thread regarding concealed carry as a perfect example of affirmative defense.....


    Here you go in the case that your Alzheimers is kicking up today.... I understand that a picture book would be more your speed, but this will have to do...

    [quote]A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute? and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms?[/quote]

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    In WI, since the right to bear arms is in our State Constitution you have an affirmative defense to such silly Statutes
    and

    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed weapon requires affirmative answers to the following
    "Yes" is an 'affirmative answer', it is not an 'affirmative defense'. Affirmative defense is a term of the legal art, the rules for which are in the various 'rules for civil procedure'.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA ******* ******* the Obamanation and its thug union thugs.

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    Me thinks that Doug and IK should follow the advice of this forum and ****. This crap is getting really old to read and it is no wonder that new people never stick around here. You guys are just like the the old VFW guys that didn't allow Vietnam vets into their "clubs" when the returned from the war front. No wonder many of them don't join now that thenumbers of the old timers are quickly diminishing.
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 - "A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but the fool's heart to the left."

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    pvtschultz wrote:
    Me thinks that Doug and IK should follow the advice of this forum and ****. This crap is getting really old to read and it is no wonder that new people never stick around here. You guys are just like the the old VFW guys that didn't allow Vietnam vets into their "clubs" when the returned from the war front. No wonder many of them don't join now that thenumbers of the old timers are quickly diminishing.
    + 10,000

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    If you can't stand the heat ("****") then get out of the kitchen.

    No wonder many of them don't join now that the numbers of the old timers are quickly diminishing.
    ????

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    Munir, We Hardly Know Ye

    1. Since this is a question of state law, I am not sure that the FRCP pertain.
    2. Since this is a question of criminal law, I am not sure that any rules of civil procedure pertain.
    3. The Wisconsin Supreme Court in Hamdan, presumably having read the Wisconsin Constitution, established a multi-pronged test to determine if the behavior in question could be defended by constitutional challenge. The questions required affirmative (yes) answers to the questions.
    4. It is an affirmative defense in that it must be raised by the defendant.

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    1. Since this is a question of state law, I am not sure that the FRCP pertain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    I think you don't know whereof you lecture. Wisconsin Statutes Chapters 801 - 807 are Wisconsin's rules for civil procedure, available here http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/Statutes.html
    2. Since this is a question of criminal law, I am not sure that any rules of civil procedure pertain.
    Chapter 167 is not a 'criminal' statute chapter, those are Chapters 939 - 980.

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    Talking

    As to the original subject of the post, I find it much easier to load up and holster up when exiting my car by using a $5 soft-sided zipper case instead of the hard case that my weapons came in originally. It's very easy to hold in one hand while I unzip it and retrieve my firearm with the other hand.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    As to the original subject of the post, I find it much easier to load up and holster up when exiting my car by using a $5 soft-sided zipper case instead of the hard case that my weapons came in originally. It's very easy to hold in one hand while I unzip it and retrieve my firearm with the other hand.

    Dave
    I had to upgrade from a $5 that I got at a gun show to a $20. The first one did not have a hook to grab onto with my left as I unzipped with my right, so I was pinching the case. I dirlled with it add decided I needed something better to grab onto gross muscle memory function in under fire conditions, if that is what it's called. I know I am close. I also needed a fabric that was a little more tacky, cuz I DASH CARRY.

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