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Thread: A hypothetical

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    Regular Member frommycolddeadhands's Avatar
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    A while back I was in a classroom and we were given a hypothetical situation based upon a real life attack. (Sorry, no link) Basically a high school girl was at the prom, and afterward went out to the parking lot to meet up with friends. Long and short is that alcohol was involved and things got bad real quick. The girl was forced to the ground and raped by 3 different men, each taking turns. A crowd of onlookers actually gathered around (picture the big cirle of people who gather around a schoolyard fight), but instead of helping the young woman they decided to flip out their cell phones and record it, snap photos and do prettymuch anything EXCEPT help her. There were school chaparones inside that were supposedly oblivious to what was happening in the parking lot. When everything was said and done the girl was left beaten and raped in the parking lot long after everyone went home. It wasn't until six hours later that someone called the cops and they found her, alive but unconscious, in the grass a few hundred yards from the parking lot.

    Our hypothetical was this: If you were walking out into a parking lot and discovered this sort of thing going on, what would you do?

    A couple of guys stated that they would have fought through the crowd, fists, elbows and whatever else necessary, and rescued the girl by force. (IMO there would be overwhelming odds for failure considering the size of the crowd, but at least they were willing to do something)

    Others said that they would have flipped out the handy-dandy cell phone and called the cops.

    Another popular answer was to go get the chaperones inside and let them handle it.

    One idea I thought was sorta clever, one guy said that he would have shouted "Oh SH*T, the COPS are coming!!" and then watched everyone scatter.

    Anyway, I thought a lot about this situation after class was over. I'm 5'6, so fighting my way through the madness to get into a fight with 3 rapists....the odds are stacked against me on that one.

    Flipping out the cell phone and calling the cops is always a good idea. Get 5-0 on the way, but really this poor girl needs help NOW, not five or ten minutes from now, so some intervention is definately called for.

    Getting the chaperones invovled isn't a bad idea. More numbers to fight for the good, as long as they are WILLING to intervene and not stand ildy by like everyone else.

    Shouting "Cops are coming" I thought was a pretty clever idea, as long as it actually worked. If not, could be hot water.

    Anyway, I'm open for thoughts. The girl obviously needs immediate help, but overwhelming numbers and violence could make this horrible situation even worse. What would you do? Any 'outside the box' ideas? What would you do if you were armed, and what would you do differently/same if you were unarmed for some reason?
    God is the one driving this stagecoach, I'm just riding shotgun.

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    I think I remember the exact case you're talking about. Not hard really. Unarmed: It would depend on the situation. If I felt reasonably sure I could physically stop them, I would do my best to try. In this particular case with so many people involved, I would simply call the police. It's not my job to rescue or protect everyone who doesn't choose to carry, or children that are left unprotected (by choice) by their very parents. I would try if I thought I could be successful, this is my MORAL obligation. First and foremost, though, I have a duty to go back to my family alive.

    Armed: They have about 5 seconds to back the hell off or someone's getting shot. I don't believe in giving people multiple chances and I wouldn't be willing to give the situation time to escalate further by trying to order someone around or effect an arrest. "Get the hell out of here or I'm shooting!" and if they're not running, you follow through on the threat. Again, if I think I can do this safely myself. I am going home to my family, and I am not willing to take the chance unless I'm reasonably sure it will succeed.

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    Depending on the situation, just busting into the crowd yelling, "What the &^%$ is going on here!" might be sufficient to stop things cold. Sunshine is a powerful bleach.

    We could figure out who did what later. The most important objective is to stop the assault.

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    Regular Member frommycolddeadhands's Avatar
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    eye95 wrote:
    Depending on the situation, just busting into the crowd yelling, "What the &^%$ is going on here!" might be sufficient to stop things cold. Sunshine is a powerful bleach.
    Those were sorta my own thoughts if I were unarmed. Hopefully that would be enough to get everyone to scatter.

    I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but if I were armed I would probably call the cops first, and then fire a shot into the ground to get everyone moving. I definately want to get cops and medics to the scene ASAP, but the girl in the midst of all this needs the assault to stop, and I mean RIGHT NOW. If that means I need to fire a bullet into the dirt, get everyone moving, and maybe get cited for illegal discharge, so be it.
    God is the one driving this stagecoach, I'm just riding shotgun.

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    I wouldn't flame you for that, so long as you know that you might be breaking the law. If you're OK with those consequences, end the assault however you see fit. I myself might get flamed for NOT doing anything even though I am armed. Like I said, I'm going home to my family every night even if it means some child dying when I could have intervened. The only people 100% responsible for a child is their parents, and I won't be sending my kid to a public school dance that has very little oversight.

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    In this case, your brains are working on preconceived notions implanted by the poorly worded premise, and the poorly formed answer to choose from. These lead you to the misconception that the people blocking access to the victim are 'bystanders.'

    The 'bystanders' who are blocking your path when you are going to the girls aid, are actually 'criminals' involved in a 'conspiracy.' I would pick up a brick or something and bash the @#$% out of people to get to the girl. Maybe I'd hop in my car and run some people over. Personally, when I was in school I carried a knife. When you absolutely refuse to stand aside, even perpetrators will be unprepared and shocked at the level of violence a single person can bring. Also the 'bystanders' will scatter when you start crunching bone.

    RAPE IS DEFINED AS "GRIEVOUS BODILY INJURY" and you can use lethal force to stop it. This includes the 'bystanders' if they do not allow anyone to intervene.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    A few things we're all forgetting are that:

    1) high school parking lots are generally "secure" these days, or at least gated and fenced, so even being aware that something like was going on if you were walking down the street would be nearly impossible,

    2) having a firearm on high school property is a FEDERAL offense, even in defense against a "deadly force" attack, and

    3) in many states you're going to get sued in an avalanche of civil suits (after the criminal case is decided) by every kid's parents who's little darling was traumatized by the discharge, use, or even mere sight of your "deadly handgun".

    If something like this were happening in the parking lot of a WalMart, or on my street, or in a city park while I was legally carrying, I wouldn't hesitate to intervene somehow (pepper spray, collapsible baton, big tree branch, firing a shot into the dirt, whatever).

    But to think that you would even be able to evaluate such a scene in a school parking lot while walking by on a public street is a little too far into "fantasy what if land" to really even bother with.

    And any set of adult chaperones who would let a young girl walk out into th parking lot alone at sch an event should be held criminally liable for anything that happens to her anyway...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member frommycolddeadhands's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    A few things we're all forgetting are that:

    1) high school parking lots are generally "secure" these days, or at least gated and fenced, so even being aware that something like was going on if you were walking down the street would be nearly impossible,

    2) having a firearm on high school property is a FEDERAL offense, even in defense against a "deadly force" attack, and

    3) in many states you're going to get sued in an avalanche of civil suits (after the criminal case is decided) by every kid's parents who's little darling was traumatized by the discharge, use, or even mere sight of your "deadly handgun".

    If something like this were happening in the parking lot of a WalMart, or on my street, or in a city park while I was legally carrying, I wouldn't hesitate to intervene somehow (pepper spray, collapsible baton, big tree branch, firing a shot into the dirt, whatever).

    But to think that you would even be able to evaluate such a scene in a school parking lot while walking by on a public street is a little too far into "fantasy what if land" to really even bother with.

    And any set of adult chaperones who would let a young girl walk out into th parking lot alone at sch an event should be held criminally liable for anything that happens to her anyway...
    Points well made. For the purpose of this hypothetical the parking lot can be anywhere. Wal-Mart, Post Office, outside a bar, whatever, and you can be armed or unarmed, however you want to play it out.

    As far as the possibility of being sued for traumatizing one of the onlookers, well, they were already watching a violent rape. If they want to claim that me firing a shot into the dirt and saving the girl was 'over the top' I think I'll take my chances with the judge.
    God is the one driving this stagecoach, I'm just riding shotgun.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    We all know how RoboCop handled it, right?

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Honestly, shouting "the police are coming" is more likely to succeed than fail.

    I am 6'4" and am strong and fat enough that I could move through the crowd, picking up anyone in my way and tossing them to the side like they were nothing, I've done this before to break up a fight. However, I don't think I'd be much of a match for three guys, not to mention the strong possibility of someone from the crowd joining the fight against me.

    First thing I would do is call the police. I have no idea what I'd do next. I would be on the phone with the police only long enough to tell them where I am and let them know what is going on. After that, I would look for a way to stop the attack. But I have no idea what I'd do, it depends on the situation, what tools I have at hand etc. Who knows, maybe I would just yell that the police are coming. Just don't yell you called the police. >.>

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    It's not about being able to win the fight. It's about stopping the rape. But that is me. I'll risk the beating or worse to stop the rape.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Dreamer wrote:
    A few things we're all forgetting are that:

    1) high school parking lots are generally "secure" these days, or at least gated and fenced, so even being aware that something like was going on if you were walking down the street would be nearly impossible,

    2) having a firearm on high school property is a FEDERAL offense, even in defense against a "deadly force" attack, and

    3) in many states you're going to get sued in an avalanche of civil suits (after the criminal case is decided) by every kid's parents who's little darling was traumatized by the discharge, use, or even mere sight of your "deadly handgun".

    If something like this were happening in the parking lot of a WalMart, or on my street, or in a city park while I was legally carrying, I wouldn't hesitate to intervene somehow (pepper spray, collapsible baton, big tree branch, firing a shot into the dirt, whatever).

    But to think that you would even be able to evaluate such a scene in a school parking lot while walking by on a public street is a little too far into "fantasy what if land" to really even bother with.

    And any set of adult chaperones who would let a young girl walk out into th parking lot alone at sch an event should be held criminally liable for anything that happens to her anyway...
    I agree with everything you said, except number one. I helped out a cheerleading coach for a while andescorted the young ladies to and from football gamesso I've been to most every high school in these parts andnot one of them is fenced. The parking lots are less than secured.



    This area may be different than others though.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    A few things we're all forgetting are that:



    2) having a firearm on high school property is a FEDERAL offense, even in defense against a "deadly force" attack, and

    It is, however, you may break a law to prevent a greater law from being broken. However, this only applies if you're a spectator that was not originally present on the property when this occurred. If you are a passer by, and are armed, you are justified in "carrying" your firearm on the property to stop a crime. Same thing with a bar. You won't be justified if you are already present on the property, armed, without another crime occurring.

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    A few things we're all forgetting are that:

    2) having a firearm on high school property is a FEDERAL offense, even in defense against a "deadly force" attack, and
    It is, however, you may break a law to prevent a greater law from being broken. However, this only applies if you're a spectator that was not originally present on the property when this occurred. If you are a passer by, and are armed, you are justified in "carrying" your firearm on the property to stop a crime. Same thing with a bar. You won't be justified if you are already present on the property, armed, without another crime occurring.
    Isn't there an exception in the federal law for CPL holders? And, if you can legally carry the gun, should you not be able to lawfully draw and use it?

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    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    Already answered in your choices. Call police, yell cops are coming, take pictures of the crowd, I'm sure they will be happy to be included in the police investigation for their social activity. If the last rapist is still on the girl and the crowd is gone you get a free kick at his head, just make sure its a good solid kick, repeat as necessary till he is no longer on the girl. The evidence will be on him and in the girl so his chances of getting out of jail after getting out of the hospital are slim.

    Shooting a warning shot into the air or the ground is never a good idea no matter where you are, especially on gun controlled property like school grounds. You don't shoot unless you are in fear for your life or you see the girl is getting beaten and in deadly danger. Then you shoot to stop not to warn. If Boogerman dies fine, if he doesn't die just hope the wound was painful and crippling.

    I don't have much love for people who abuse, rape or beat women and children and I have no problem with removing them from the general population. A groin shot if you can take it without injuring anybody else would be perfectly acceptable to me. Several groin shots for insurance would be better. I will testify that he fell down a flight of stairs or whatever else you and your lawyer want me to swear to.
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    this is how you prevent rape

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-rape_device

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    No brainer for me. Stop the rape. I would prefer to be unarmed as I wouldn't want a firearm to become unsecure in a physical tussle. I think it is unlikely the bystanders would offer physical resistance because they are bystanders.

    I don't think the rapist's would offer much resistance either, because they do not want to get caught, so if somewhere were to try and stop the assault I think they would flee.

    If not - then one of them would be getting an ass whoopin.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Old Grump wrote:
    You don't shoot unless you are in fear for your life or you see the girl is getting beaten and in deadly danger. Then you shoot to stop not to warn.
    Rape is defined as grievous bodily injury and meets the requirement for use of deadly force. It doesn't matter how gentle and polite the guy is.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You know, one of the twisted aspects of MD law is that if you just walked on by, and let the girl get raped, you would actually be HELPING her with regards to her ability to exercise her 2A rights.

    Because after she had been brutally raped, and filed a police report and received medical treatment, under MD law, she would actually have a VALID REASON to be issued a concealed carry permit in MD after she turned 21...

    In MD, if you are attacked and survive, THEN the MSP will consider giving you a permit.

    But not before...

    It's sick, but that's the way it works up there.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    simmonsjoe wrote:
    Old Grump wrote:
    You don't shoot unless you are in fear for your life or you see the girl is getting beaten and in deadly danger. Then you shoot to stop not to warn.
    Rape is defined as grievous bodily injury and meets the requirement for use of deadly force. It doesn't matter how gentle and polite the guy is.
    Agreed, I would run to my car and get my handgun or shotgun with some less than lethal rounds if possible. I may get charged with having a firearm in a gun free zone, but the political firestorm it would cause if they did try to charge me would be massive. I willing to go to court because I broke a law to save a persons life.
    "You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think will work but I've found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much the universal language." Clint Smith

    I would shoot any and all who tried to stop me from saving that girls life, its not likely people will try and stop you when your draw or fire your weapon.Scum like them will either run or die from loss of blood(two to the chest, one to the head.). If the only reason you would not step in was because you refused to knowingly break the law to save her life with your firearm, I hope no one in your family or yourself ever is in need of help and the same is dealt to you.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
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