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Thread: Arts Beats and Eats

  1. #1
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    http://www.artsbeatseats.com/

    This is on city property, but it is a pay to get into event. So thoughts on if we would be welcomed without issue...

    If we are good, or if anyone wants to contact them then I say we get something together and go as a group.

    I am not sure what happened for sure at the hoe down, because everthing was deleted but I don't want something "bad" to happen.

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  2. #2
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    ill go. ill be the guiena pig and go first. Im in for this one:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebr ate:celebrate

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Who puts on this event? If they lease the property from the city for the event depending on the lease agreement they may have private property rights and be able to restrict what is allowed in.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
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    It is 100% open to the public, held on public property...you cannot be made to leave. Enjoy!

  5. #5
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    scot623 wrote:
    It is 100% open to the public, held on public property...you cannot be made to leave. Enjoy!
    Awesome I knew someone closer to the event who knew the situation would be along!

    Thanks Robb!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  6. #6
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Where is it, and when?

    Maybe I'll tag along with ya'll.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  7. #7
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    Where is it, and when?

    Maybe I'll tag along with ya'll.
    I changed my original post so it would reflect some of the details. Now, would you have to be a CPL holder to open carry here? The reason I ask is they serve beer at this event, but does that meanthe WHOLE thing is OC w/CPL only, or just to be at those tents?

    Also I was told via PM from a member who called on the issue that The City Of Royal Oak was making this a PFZ because of 2500+ seating (even though this is a walking event not a sitting event), and they wouldn't allow CC or OC. This member than said it only pertains to CC and the person on the phone said to take it up with the city.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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  8. #8
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    eastmeyers wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Where is it, and when?

    Maybe I'll tag along with ya'll.
    I changed my original post so it would reflect some of the details. Now, would you have to be a CPL holder to open carry here? The reason I ask is they serve beer at this event, but does that meanthe WHOLE thing is OC w/CPL only, or just to be at those tents?

    Also I was told via PM from a member who called on the issue that The City Of Royal Oak was making this a PFZ because of 2500+ seating (even though this is a walking event not a sitting event), and they wouldn't allow CC or OC. This member than said it only pertains to CC and the person on the phone said to take it up with the city.
    Is an event an 'entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people?' I'm thinking not. Isn't most of it outside? I think I was there about 6-7 years ago, and I remember the majority of it being outside. If it IS outside (which it very well may be if I'm recalling the correct event, and not something else) it can't be a FACILITY, and therefore they cannot enforce the 2500 stipulations.

    Just thought of that one... :celebrate
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  9. #9
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    it can't be a FACILITY, and therefore they cannot enforce the 2500 stipulations.
    I don't think that there is any way they'd try to bring out that many chairs, even if they thought they could call it a facility. Even if they could, preemption would apply, and CPL holders would be fine to OC.
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  10. #10
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    It would be a neat trick to see them try and call a road an entertaiment facility. The whole event is held on blocked off streets.

  11. #11
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    scot623 wrote:
    It would be a neat trick to see them try and call a road an entertaiment facility. The whole event is held on blocked off streets.
    Exactly my point.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  13. #13
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    The festival was designed to provide outstanding family entertainment at a very low cost. In 2009 the festival added an admission fee. This $3 admission fee supports the festival and community as follows: .25 to Arts Advocacy, .25 to the City of Royal Oak, and 50% of the remaining admission fees to 13 local charities after gating costs. For a list of non-profit partners that will share our admission fee, click here. To date, over $2 million raised by Ford Arts, Beats & Eats has been donated to charity.

    Part of the admission fee goes straight to the city. Interesting. I honestly see no way the can bar anyone from the event.

  14. #14
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    I emailed the City manager(no email for the attorney). I asked it to be forwarded on. I included AG Granholms opinion and touched on the appropriate themes. I will keep you updated if and when I get a reply.

  15. #15
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    I have a copy of the agreement between the city and Arts Beats and Eats.

    Section 3. Responsibilities of Arts Beats Eats

    As owner, producer, and operator of the Festival, ABE will:

    q. Provide representatives of the City with an estimate of the anticipated attendance at the festival, including an estimate of the number of people the national stage will draw for each concert. NO FIREARMS, unsafe or illegal articles, or fireworks will be permitted on the festival premises, or be allowed to be available for sale in the Festival grounds.

    Keep in mind the festival grounds are CITY STREETS!Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Washington.

    This is beyond ILLEGAL. I do not expect any reply from the city attorney or manager. While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws". I explained I was there to explain the laws to the attorney(his secretary didn't like that too much). We must attend the next city commission meeting July 12 to make them aware of the illegal agreement the city has entered into.

  16. #16
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    scot623 wrote:
    I have a copy of the agreement between the city and Arts Beats and Eats.

    Section 3. Responsibilities of Arts Beats Eats

    As owner, producer, and operator of the Festival, ABE will:

    q. Provide representatives of the City with an estimate of the anticipated attendance at the festival, including an estimate of the number of people the national stage will draw for each concert. NO FIREARMS, unsafe or illegal articles, or fireworks will be permitted on the festival premises, or be allowed to be available for sale in the Festival grounds.

    Keep in mind the festival grounds are CITY STREETS!Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Washington.

    This is beyond ILLEGAL. I do not expect any reply from the city attorney or manager. While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws". I explained I was there to explain the laws to the attorney(his secretary didn't like that too much). We must attend the next city commission meeting July 12 to make them aware of the illegal agreement the city has entered into.
    Address for Commission meeting July 12,2010 7p.m.

    City of Royal Oak,

    211 S Williams Street, Royal Oak MI 48067

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...gan+48067&z=16

  17. #17
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    scot623 wrote:
    I have a copy of the agreement between the city and Arts Beats and Eats.

    Section 3. Responsibilities of Arts Beats Eats

    As owner, producer, and operator of the Festival, ABE will:

    q. Provide representatives of the City with an estimate of the anticipated attendance at the festival, including an estimate of the number of people the national stage will draw for each concert. NO FIREARMS, unsafe or illegal articles, or fireworks will be permitted on the festival premises, or be allowed to be available for sale in the Festival grounds.

    Keep in mind the festival grounds are CITY STREETS!Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Washington.

    This is beyond ILLEGAL. I do not expect any reply from the city attorney or manager. While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws". I explained I was there to explain the laws to the attorney(his secretary didn't like that too much). We must attend the next city commission meeting July 12 to make them aware of the illegal agreement the city has entered into.
    Address for Commission meeting July 12,2010 7p.m.

    City of Royal Oak,

    211 S Williams Street, Royal Oak MI 48067

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...48067&z=16
    Do we have a copy of the agreement that can be sent or posted online?
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  18. #18
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws".
    Funny. I was told the same thing back in October 2009 about their Civil Emergencies Ordinance having issues with Preemption (not a priority, but maybe we will get to it when time allows). My emails about that have not been returned since then.

    Guess I will have a dual reason to be there on July 12th, 2010.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  19. #19
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    i thought arts beats and eats was in pontiac?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  20. #20
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    I'll have the full agreement uploaded soon. Here is a visual of the illegal PFZ. I wonder how the citizens who live in this area feel about their rights being stolen because of a festival.

  21. #21
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    Pontiac lost it

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    scot623 wrote:
    I have a copy of the agreement between the city and Arts Beats and Eats.

    Section 3. Responsibilities of Arts Beats Eats

    As owner, producer, and operator of the Festival, ABE will:

    q. Provide representatives of the City with an estimate of the anticipated attendance at the festival, including an estimate of the number of people the national stage will draw for each concert. NO FIREARMS, unsafe or illegal articles, or fireworks will be permitted on the festival premises, or be allowed to be available for sale in the Festival grounds.

    Keep in mind the festival grounds are CITY STREETS!Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Washington.

    This is beyond ILLEGAL. I do not expect any reply from the city attorney or manager. While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws". I explained I was there to explain the laws to the attorney(his secretary didn't like that too much). We must attend the next city commission meeting July 12 to make them aware of the illegal agreement the city has entered into.
    Address for Commission meeting July 12,2010 7p.m.

    City of Royal Oak,

    211 S Williams Street, Royal Oak MI 48067

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...gan+48067&z=16
    Do we have a copy of the agreement that can be sent or posted online?
    It appears that the city is making the "no firearms" section part of the contract... not the other way around so, IANAL, but this seems to violate MCL 123.1101 et seq.
    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.]
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    scot623 wrote:
    I have a copy of the agreement between the city and Arts Beats and Eats.

    Section 3. Responsibilities of Arts Beats Eats

    As owner, producer, and operator of the Festival, ABE will:

    q. Provide representatives of the City with an estimate of the anticipated attendance at the festival, including an estimate of the number of people the national stage will draw for each concert. NO FIREARMS, unsafe or illegal articles, or fireworks will be permitted on the festival premises, or be allowed to be available for sale in the Festival grounds.

    Keep in mind the festival grounds are CITY STREETS!Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Washington.

    This is beyond ILLEGAL. I do not expect any reply from the city attorney or manager. While I was at city hall today,I was told, "this is not a priority and it is not the job of the city attorney to explain to citizens the laws". I explained I was there to explain the laws to the attorney(his secretary didn't like that too much). We must attend the next city commission meeting July 12 to make them aware of the illegal agreement the city has entered into.
    Address for Commission meeting July 12,2010 7p.m.

    City of Royal Oak,

    211 S Williams Street, Royal Oak MI 48067

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...gan+48067&z=16
    Do we have a copy of the agreement that can be sent or posted online?
    It appears that the city is making the "no firearms" section part of the contract... not the other way around so, IANAL, but this seems to violate MCL 123.1101 et seq.
    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.]
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
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    http://fozzypokermods.com/OC/Royal%2...0Agreement.pdf

    Here is the agreement. Thanks for the server, fozzy

  25. #25
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    "whereas ABE (arts beats and eats) desires to produce such a festival for the city....."
    So the city wants to have a festival, and they are contracting with Arts Beats and Eats to provide said festival for the city.

    Seems to me that preemption would certainly apply.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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