Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 90

Thread: New Lothrop passes illegal ordinance June 2010

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932

    Post New Lothrop passes illegal ordinance June 2010

    The village of New Lothrop ordains: Sec. 1. Unlawfully carrying a weapon.
    A person Commits the crime of unlawfully carrying a weapon if he knowingly:

    a. Carries a knife concealed on or about his person; or

    b. Carries a pistol concealed on or about his person; or

    c. Carries a knife or pistol whether concealed or not in a vehicle that he is operating or occupying.

    d. This Section does not apply to: 1. people who carry at home/business; 2. A person meeting the requirements of Sec 12/12a of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being Sec. 28.432, and 28.432a of the Compiled Laws of 1948.
    I am unable to find a link on the newspapers article, or the online version of new lothrop's ordinances.

    28.432/432a exempts police officers, and non-residence who have a cpl.

    This act would make it illegal for a michigan resident to carry a concealed pistol even with cpl, or even to have one unloaded and cased in your trunk.

    obviously the township attorney did not get the memo about preemption.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932

    Post imported post

    their last council meeting was on Wednesday, June 9, at the village office, 9435 Beech St., New Lothrop at 7pm.

    I would assume their next meeting will be the first wednesday in july. I will try and call them tomorrow to find out so we can attend and request they fix their mistake.

    A couple of us went for a motorcycle ride to new lothrop today. I was open carrying. We ate pizza, got ice cream, walked around. No problems. City offices were closed. It is a pretty small town.


    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    My knee jerk reaction to this is: we need to start raising money and begin actively targeting elected officials in upcoming elections who push 2A & other arms rights violations. It's clear to me that the NRA is fine with the current CPL system as it generates tons of new members & cash for them. This would have to be a grass roots thing that we set up. Maybe something like American Pistol Owners For Self Protection or some other name?
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  4. #4
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    New Lothrop has a car show the last weekend in July... July 31st this year. The show is usually over and done with about 3pm.

    Already planning to attend.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    Bikenut wrote:
    New Lothrop has a car show the last weekend in July... July 31st this year. The show is usually over and done with about 3pm.

    Already planning to attend.
    I'll see if I can make it also. Looking forward to meeting you & yooper lady

    I hear you've got a pretty nice car yourself.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  6. #6
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    Glock9mmOldStyle wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:
    New Lothrop has a car show the last weekend in July... July 31st this year. The show is usually over and done with about 3pm.

    Already planning to attend.
    I'll see if I can make it also. Looking forward to meeting you & yuper lady (sorry if I goof her sceen name) I hear you've got a pretty nice car yourself.
    We are looking forward to it!

    And I really am concerned with a village passing an ordinance in direct opposition of the preemption law right in the middle of plenty of news coverage about that same law......
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Hyperion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    45

    Post imported post

    Glock9mmOldStyle wrote:
    My knee jerk reaction to this is: we need to start raising money and begin actively targeting elected officials in upcoming elections who push 2A & other arms rights violations. It's clear to me that the NRA is fine with the current CPL system as it generates tons of new members & cash for them. This would have to be a grass roots thing that we set up. Maybe something like American Pistol Owners For Self Protection or some other name?
    FYI:

    Please don't shoot the messenger , and you probably already know this, but what you are proposing will require registration as a Political Action Committee (PAC) with the Michigan Bureau of Elections; and/or Lobbyist with the Secretary of State, among other concerns.

    Typically, there are expenditure thresholds that, when met, will require registration. Recently in the news was the story of a homeowner's association that had raised funds to buy yard signs to pass/defeat some local issue that affected the homeowners. The adverse party filed a complaint that the HOA was unregistered. The individual homeowners then faced significant civil liability/fines for failing to comply with the laws.



    Scroll down to "Campaign Finance..." and "Lobby Registration..."

    http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7...473---,00.html

    http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7...945---,00.html

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    Yep - I've been there done that in the past. It's not as hard as it seems. Heck we can do ANYTHING if we all work together. Okay enough of my pep speech now ... lets go out & win one for Charlton Heston!

    http://nrawinningteam.com/heston.html


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ju4Gla2odw

    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    lapeer20m wrote:
    The village of New Lothrop ordains: Sec. 1. Unlawfully carrying a weapon.
    A person Commits the crime of unlawfully carrying a weapon if he knowingly:

    a. Carries a knife concealed on or about his person; or

    b. Carries a pistol concealed on or about his person; or

    c. Carries a knife or pistol whether concealed or not in a vehicle that he is operating or occupying.

    d. This Section does not apply to: 1. people who carry at home/business; 2. A person meeting the requirements of Sec 12/12a of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being Sec. 28.432, and 28.432a of the Compiled Laws of 1948.

    This is odd.

    Here's MCL 28.432which I believe is the "section 12" referenced above.The really odd thing to me is that section 12 exempts people who are licensed to carry concealed by another state and someone who has a MI CPL who is carrying somebody elses registered pistol.

    So as I read this local ordinance they want to make it illegal for somebody with a MI CPL to conceal carry their own gun but if they wereconcealing a gun registered to another person that would be ok, or if they had a non-resident permitfrom another state :?:shock:

    Over and above the violation of pre-emption this is justsloppy.
    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.

    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".
    Oh here's MCL 28.432a/section 12a

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,605

    Post imported post

    New Lothrops' Ordinance is Illegal when weighted against Michigan Public Safety Code 123.1102 of ACT 319 of 1990.



  11. #11
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    Also posted on OC experiences.......

    Yooperlady and I went for a ride today... ended up in New Lothrop where we stopped in at the little convenience store because I ran out of Mt. Dew. No problems but the sidearm was noticed.

    Went from there for a nostalgic drive around the little sleepy town because both Yooperlady and I lived in New Lothrop years ago... man... nothing much changed!!! A little bit of growth but mostly still a quiet little rural community... kinda nice actually.

    Anyway... noticed the Hazelton Township office (anyone know what Hazelton Township's ordinances look like?) and saw a notice on one of the doors. I got out pen and paper in hand and wrote down...

    Village Council meetings 2nd Wednesday of the month at 7pm in the Municipal Building at 9435 Beech St..

    in full view of the bank's drive thru window across the parking lot. No problems occurred.

    Ok... on over to the Municipal Building we go and I go up to the door there pen and paper in hand to write down the copy of the new ordinance for New Lothrop Village passed June 9th of this year posted on the door.

    While writing an off duty officer arrives and we have a very nice discussion about the ordinance. Apparently the Council is already well aware of the illegality of the new ordinance.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,605

    Post imported post

    Well good..., at least New Lothrop acknowledges the Illegality of its Preempted Ordinance!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    aadvark wrote:
    Well good..., at least New Lothrop acknowledges the Illegality of its Preempted Ordinance!
    Yes but has anyone heard what they plan to do about it? So far all I've been able to ascertain is that it might be a good idea to show up at the next council meeting. I'm seriously considering it at this point but am unsure about a possible schedule conflict.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932

    Post imported post

    if nobody is able to make it to july's meeting, i will try my best to make it to the meeting in august.

    Our baby is due in mid-july, so i won't be able to make that meeting.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    This would make the next (two) council meetings: July 7th & August 11th. Maybe we could get some help setting up a coordinated showing of members in that area?
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    Man what a speck on the map this "Village" is under a square mile in size & has a population under 600! The council thinks they've got a problem with people OCing??? It just goes to show that idle hands are indeed the Devils' tools.:shock:
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    Glock9mmOldStyle wrote:
    Man what a speck on the map this "Village" is under a square mile in size & has a population under 600! The council thinks they've got a problem with people OCing??? It just goes to show that idle hands are indeed the Devils' tools.:shock:
    There is some speculation (rumor) that the offending ordinance, written long ago, underwent a minor wording change of an existing ordinance but whether or not the body of the ordinance was in line with State Law wasn't explored before passage of the new wording change/ordinance.

    So New Lothrop may not have even considered open carry, much less have a problem with it. But even that is speculation on my part since I really don't know but am unwilling to condemn without having facts.

    Regardless, if scheduling allows I'll attend the next council meeting.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228

    Post imported post

    new lothrop is a nice little town. my dad grew up in chesaning and i grew up in saginaw township.

  19. #19
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    It is also very likely that the basis of this ordinance came from MML which has a ton of unlawful ordinances in template form in their database.. This is something we are working on.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    I think you are missing the forest for the trees here guys....it is every councils job to know what they are voting for...it's clear that in most of S.E. MI either they don't or worse, choose NOT to follow the state law. They are the law makers, so yes I will rebuke them for violating mine & your rights.:X
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754

    Post imported post

    Glock9mmOldStyle wrote:
    I think you are missing the forest for the trees here guys....it is every councils job to know what they are voting for...it's clear that in most of S.E. MI either they don't or worse, choose NOT to follow the state law. They are the law makers, so yes I will rebuke them for violating mine & your rights.:X
    Please do not misunderstand my post concerning New Lothrop's passing their ordinance as making excuses for them... it is not. It is only a mention that not all things are always super anti OC specifically.....

    But it still doesn't hurt to use OC to remind officials of their duty to know the law... and abide by it!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Post imported post

    Bikenut wrote:
    Glock9mmOldStyle wrote:
    I think you are missing the forest for the trees here guys....it is every councils job to know what they are voting for...it's clear that in most of S.E. MI either they don't or worse, choose NOT to follow the state law. They are the law makers, so yes I will rebuke them for violating mine & your rights.:X
    Please do not misunderstand my post concerning New Lothrop's passing their ordinance as making excuses for them... it is not. It is only a mention that not all things are always super anti OC specifically.....

    But it still doesn't hurt to use OC to remind officials of their duty to know the law... and abide by it!
    You got that right Sir!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    11
    The way I'm reading their ordanacne, I don't see any problem...



    The village of New Lothrop ordains: Sec. 1. Unlawfully carrying a weapon.
    A person Commits the crime of unlawfully carrying a weapon if he knowingly:

    a. Carries a knife concealed on or about his person; or

    b. Carries a pistol concealed on or about his person; or

    c. Carries a knife or pistol whether concealed or not in a vehicle that he is operating or occupying.

    d. This Section does not apply to: 1. people who carry at home/business; 2. A person meeting the requirements of Sec 12/12a of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being Sec. 28.432, and 28.432a of the Compiled Laws of 1948.

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    Quote Originally Posted by TAC View Post
    The way I'm reading their ordanacne, I don't see any problem...



    The village of New Lothrop ordains: Sec. 1. Unlawfully carrying a weapon.
    A person Commits the crime of unlawfully carrying a weapon if he knowingly:

    a. Carries a knife concealed on or about his person; or

    b. Carries a pistol concealed on or about his person; or

    c. Carries a knife or pistol whether concealed or not in a vehicle that he is operating or occupying.

    d. This Section does not apply to: 1. people who carry at home/business; 2. A person meeting the requirements of Sec 12/12a of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being Sec. 28.432, and 28.432a of the Compiled Laws of 1948.
    The problem is THEY define unlawful behavior in the ordinance. See the parts I have bolded!

    They have no authority over these areas as the state has preempted this.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,754
    Ok.... the meeting is tomorrow night

    Village Council meetings 2nd Wednesday of the month at 7pm in the Municipal Building at 9435 Beech St..

    I can not attend... scheduling thingy... anyone else interested in attending?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •