-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
AJ Gators near Chesapeake Square Mall
- Thread starter mercutio545
- Start date
wylde007
Regular Member
imported post
My letter to Mr. Sharer:
My letter to Mr. Sharer:
Mr. Sharer:
It has come to my attention that the management at your Chesapeake Square location has posted a sign at the entrance to your establishment "banning" firearms from the premises. While there are several arguments to be made to expose the ineffectiveness of such a sign, the most simple is this: Criminals do not obey the law.
While Virginia law allows any law-abiding citizen to carry a firearm for personal protection you (or one of your agents) have taken it upon yourself to infringe on that natural right by instituting a policy. A policy does not make firearms illegal, it makes them unwelcome. Your sign essentially informs law-abiding citizens who have chosen to exercise their rights that they are not welcome in your restaurant.
What your sign cannot prevent is a someone with criminal intent from attempting an act of violence, robbery or theft by putting up a sign. In fact, what you have done is give criminals a green light to commit these acts with little fear of retaliation from their potential victims.
Virginia law allows open carry of firearms without a permit and concealed carry with. These laws are laid out in §18.2-308 et seq of the Virginia State Code. Hundreds of thousands of Virginia citizens carry firearms on their person lawfully each and every day and I, being one of them, would much prefer to offer my business to those who honour my rights and accede to the laws of the Commonwealth than to patronize an establishment where my safety and that of my family's is jeopardized by fiat.
I once enjoyed visits to your restaurants and have both performed and engineered sound at this particular location, experiencing no problems while I had my personal defensive weapon at my side.
I hope that you will reconsider your company's position, remove the offending signs and amend your policy to, in as many ways possible, reflect that your establishment(s) respect the decisions of the Commonwealth and its laws.
I am sure you will be receiving other reports of this recent development and I am most interested to hear your response on this matter. Until such time as the signs are removed myself and many who share my opinion will have no choice but to take our business elsewhere.
Kindest regards,
It has come to my attention that the management at your Chesapeake Square location has posted a sign at the entrance to your establishment "banning" firearms from the premises. While there are several arguments to be made to expose the ineffectiveness of such a sign, the most simple is this: Criminals do not obey the law.
While Virginia law allows any law-abiding citizen to carry a firearm for personal protection you (or one of your agents) have taken it upon yourself to infringe on that natural right by instituting a policy. A policy does not make firearms illegal, it makes them unwelcome. Your sign essentially informs law-abiding citizens who have chosen to exercise their rights that they are not welcome in your restaurant.
What your sign cannot prevent is a someone with criminal intent from attempting an act of violence, robbery or theft by putting up a sign. In fact, what you have done is give criminals a green light to commit these acts with little fear of retaliation from their potential victims.
Virginia law allows open carry of firearms without a permit and concealed carry with. These laws are laid out in §18.2-308 et seq of the Virginia State Code. Hundreds of thousands of Virginia citizens carry firearms on their person lawfully each and every day and I, being one of them, would much prefer to offer my business to those who honour my rights and accede to the laws of the Commonwealth than to patronize an establishment where my safety and that of my family's is jeopardized by fiat.
I once enjoyed visits to your restaurants and have both performed and engineered sound at this particular location, experiencing no problems while I had my personal defensive weapon at my side.
I hope that you will reconsider your company's position, remove the offending signs and amend your policy to, in as many ways possible, reflect that your establishment(s) respect the decisions of the Commonwealth and its laws.
I am sure you will be receiving other reports of this recent development and I am most interested to hear your response on this matter. Until such time as the signs are removed myself and many who share my opinion will have no choice but to take our business elsewhere.
Kindest regards,
ed
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
zekester wrote:
zekester wrote:
and did YOU?
wylde007
Regular Member
imported post
I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I hope the email he referred to wasn't Wm's.
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
TFred
Regular Member
imported post
A good reminder for all of us who communicate with others on this subject.
There are two major kinds of people who post "no guns" signs.
They are: 1) the die-hard "no guns, anywhere, ever" crowd, who we must understand live in a deluded fantasy world, and 2) the "I haven't really thought about it, but it seems like a good idea" crowd, who are ... well, just that. For crowd #2, it's not generally a passionate issue, they're just trying to run their business, make a living, and spend some time with their family and kids at the end of the day.
We aren't ever going to convince the first crowd, no matter what we do. Just like the horse and water, you can present logic to a deluded person, but you can't make them think.
And if we treat the second crowd like we want to treat the first crowd, then we won't ever convince them either.
When you do the math... the only course that yields success is calm, polite, respectful reasoning.
TFred
A good reminder for all of us who communicate with others on this subject.
There are two major kinds of people who post "no guns" signs.
They are: 1) the die-hard "no guns, anywhere, ever" crowd, who we must understand live in a deluded fantasy world, and 2) the "I haven't really thought about it, but it seems like a good idea" crowd, who are ... well, just that. For crowd #2, it's not generally a passionate issue, they're just trying to run their business, make a living, and spend some time with their family and kids at the end of the day.
We aren't ever going to convince the first crowd, no matter what we do. Just like the horse and water, you can present logic to a deluded person, but you can't make them think.
And if we treat the second crowd like we want to treat the first crowd, then we won't ever convince them either.
When you do the math... the only course that yields success is calm, polite, respectful reasoning.
TFred
45acpForMe
Newbie
imported post
Bravo! Schedule an OC dinner there and I will try to make it.
Bravo! Schedule an OC dinner there and I will try to make it.
DonTreadOnMe
Regular Member
imported post
wylde007 wrote:
Hmm.....might have been mine. I never did get another email from him.
Anyway, great job.
wylde007 wrote:
I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I hope the email he referred to wasn't Wm's.
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
Hmm.....might have been mine. I never did get another email from him.
Anyway, great job.
imported post
wylde007 wrote:
wylde007 wrote:
wylde, did you explain to him that you still plan on drinking alcohol while carrying your loaded firearm on your hip while in his establishment? It seems that he is not against the carrying of firearms, but against the combination of alcohol and firearms (for obvious reasons). You should clearly explain to restaurants/bars that ban guns, that you believe that should allow you to carry regardless if you are under the influence of alcohol. Make sure you support your reasoning with facts and citations.I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I hope the email he referred to wasn't Wm's.
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
imported post
NovaCop10 wrote:
You see, I have been driving to restaurants, ignoring GFZ signs, CCing inside, having a beer with food, and driving home, in VA, for YEARS. No car or gun accidents.
Now sometimes I am going out with friends, or to a buddy's house, and I leave the gun at the house, take a taxi, and get @#$%ed up, bar hopping and doing shots off of tummies. If I had a gun or had chosen to drive on one of these occasions, I could have died/killed someone.
But novacop doesn't get to interact with people like me or Wylde, because I make sound and safe decisions, and plan ahead. So all he sees are @#$%tarded morons who think they can somehow drive drunk better than everyone else, or know their gun is unloaded without checking when showing it to friends, or simply don't think before they act. This gives him a skewed perception of the population.
I'd think the same way if I had to deal with that shit all the time. It's gotta be hard. Look at this shit, for a random traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqPwoidxUOU
NovaCop10 wrote:
Yea. Novacop is right. Make sure you let him know that a 16oz yuengling with a plate of food will turn you into a killing machine. Oh wait... Thats called responsible drinking. See, you could not eat food and order 4 mixed drinks then drive home. You see that is what NovaCop deals with all the time. He never sees those of us who can control ourselves and make sound decisions.wylde007 wrote:wylde, did you explain to him that you still plan on drinking alcohol while carrying your loaded firearm on your hip while in his establishment? It seems that he is not against the carrying of firearms, but against the combination of alcohol and firearms (for obvious reasons). You should clearly explain to restaurants/bars that ban guns, that you believe that should allow you to carry regardless if you are under the influence of alcohol. Make sure you support your reasoning with facts and citations.I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I hope the email he referred to wasn't Wm's.
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
You see, I have been driving to restaurants, ignoring GFZ signs, CCing inside, having a beer with food, and driving home, in VA, for YEARS. No car or gun accidents.
Now sometimes I am going out with friends, or to a buddy's house, and I leave the gun at the house, take a taxi, and get @#$%ed up, bar hopping and doing shots off of tummies. If I had a gun or had chosen to drive on one of these occasions, I could have died/killed someone.
But novacop doesn't get to interact with people like me or Wylde, because I make sound and safe decisions, and plan ahead. So all he sees are @#$%tarded morons who think they can somehow drive drunk better than everyone else, or know their gun is unloaded without checking when showing it to friends, or simply don't think before they act. This gives him a skewed perception of the population.
I'd think the same way if I had to deal with that shit all the time. It's gotta be hard. Look at this shit, for a random traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqPwoidxUOU
ed
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
simmonsjoe wrote:
:banghead:
simmonsjoe wrote:
Seriously? You are going to BRAG about how well you break the law on a public forum while spewing out how "responsible" you are?
:banghead:
DonTreadOnMe
Regular Member
imported post
NovaCop10 wrote:
Wylde007 did a nice piece of work with his letter. He persuaded someone that I had all but written off into making his business gun friendly again. That goes to the very core of the purpose of this site. He was persuasive and professional and most impressive.....he was successful.
After reading his letter I made a mental note that if I am going to write someone in a situation like that I should up my game in my efforts to promote our rights.
Your only reaction in this thread was to take a sarcastic swipe at someone posting of their successful promoting of OC??? Really???
NovaCop10 wrote:
I am sorry, but what exactly is your motive to post in this thread or coming to this site at all? It does not seam to be to help or promote our rights from what I see.wylde007 wrote:wylde, did you explain to him that you still plan on drinking alcohol while carrying your loaded firearm on your hip while in his establishment? It seems that he is not against the carrying of firearms, but against the combination of alcohol and firearms (for obvious reasons). You should clearly explain to restaurants/bars that ban guns, that you believe that should allow you to carry regardless if you are under the influence of alcohol. Make sure you support your reasoning with facts and citations.I received this response today. I was most pleased and felt that the owner was considerate and accommodating, though brief.
Perhaps we might schedule an open-carry dinner at one of his establishments in the [near] future?
I hope the email he referred to wasn't Wm's.
I also cannot see how anyone would expect to be respected or appreciated if their first instinct is to threaten (which I don't believe I read anywhere in Wm's post).
Wylde007 did a nice piece of work with his letter. He persuaded someone that I had all but written off into making his business gun friendly again. That goes to the very core of the purpose of this site. He was persuasive and professional and most impressive.....he was successful.
After reading his letter I made a mental note that if I am going to write someone in a situation like that I should up my game in my efforts to promote our rights.
Your only reaction in this thread was to take a sarcastic swipe at someone posting of their successful promoting of OC??? Really???
imported post
I come to this board to discuss OC and gun laws in general. In this thread, I disagreed with the stance of 1 individual, although others have messaged me in support. I don't think Wylde is a sensitive guy, I think he can take criticism on some ideas I don't agree with, just as I have taken much criticism as well.
I'm not against OC.....just against carrying guns while engaged in drinking/drugs/wearing Redskins clothing.
I come to this board to discuss OC and gun laws in general. In this thread, I disagreed with the stance of 1 individual, although others have messaged me in support. I don't think Wylde is a sensitive guy, I think he can take criticism on some ideas I don't agree with, just as I have taken much criticism as well.
I'm not against OC.....just against carrying guns while engaged in drinking/drugs/wearing Redskins clothing.
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
My intent was not to brag. It was to draw a real-world contrast in order to disagree with some of the implications in NovaCop's comment, while empathizing with him at the same time.
I can disagree with someone while respecting and understanding their point of view/reference.
Referencing myself was chosen because I used real-world concerns and experience instead of hypothetical/'I feel' logic.
Please don't confuse legality with morality. I have never done anything I feel is outside of Natural Law or the 2A. in regards to carry.
As an example. I used to drive tractor trailers. I've seen many accidents and read the reports on hundreds. I have had people pass me when it was raining, complaining on the CB about me going below the posted speed limit. On TWO OCCASIONS those trucks were in a ditch less than 5 miles down the road. I knew in both instances the road conditions were deceptive, and chose to go below the posted speed limit, because it was the moral thing to do. These guys didn't break the law, but were morally wrong in their actions. There were other times I went 10mph over the speed limit, in the desert with great visibility and little traffic. Was it illegal? Yes. Was it immoral? No. there were no trees. Visibility is like 10 miles and there are no towns and exits are 20 miles apart. FOR MY EMPLOYER, THE MAJORITY OF ACCIDENTS WHERE THE DRIVER WAS FIRED, THE DRIVER DIDN'T BREAK ANY LAWS AND HAD NO CHARGES FILED AGAINST HIM.
I feel, as individuals, we need to stop letting people slide with bad decisions just because it is 'legal.' You can't, and shouldn't, legislate morality, but you can tell your neighbor he is making bad decisions.
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
I agree with this. I just don't feel having a beer with food qualifies for myself. Many people are not the type to have a beer at lunch.
wylde007
Regular Member
Immaterial.
DontTreadOnMeVa
Regular Member
Dear Mr Sharer,
I never got a response from you, other than asking for the picture, but I understand that my email might have come across rather sharp. I frankly figured AJ Gators policy was what it was...and was simply informing you of my displeasure. I was not really making an effort to persuade you to change your policy. Today, I did read a response you wrote to another concerned customer regarding this same issue.
Rather than assuming your stance, he made an argument for you to change the policy. In you well reasoned response you wrote that you had decided to have the sign(s) taken down. I am impressed that you would be receptive to the concerns of customers and had a willingness to review you policy, and in fact make a change. Your handling of the issue was thoughtful and honorable. I wish I had not underestimated the chance you might be so responsive.
Humbly,
William Taylor
__________________________
hello,
thanks for your input,I have addressed it the sign issue.
take care
jeff
**************
wylde007
Regular Member
What happened, Bill? Lose you login credentials?
DontTreadOnMeVa
Regular Member
Yea, I had some trouble with the change over.