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Thread: 4th Amendment Question

  1. #1
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    Ok, this may not seem like the best site for this, but I think the users of this site might have the best insite on a 4th amendment question.

    I was on my boat (inland lake) last weekend and watch the Oakland County Sheriff stop 5 boats, one right after the other to give them a safety inspection.

    Question is: Is that legal? From everything I can find, the Coast Guard is the only one with the Federal Authority (article or section 17 or something I read) to do that because the wear so many hats.

    Doesn't seem right that the police can perform a search to see "if you are legal".

    This seems to fall right in line with the police pulling you over to see "if you have a license or registration" even when no crime or infraction had occurred.

    Any thoughts?



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    On the face, it's unconstitutional.


    But that doesn't make it illegal.

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    Sue if at all possible.

    I heard that the 4th amendment doesnt apply to american citizens on american waterways on privately american owned watercraft. I had a paddleboat once, but the way an OCSD watercop stared at me all day really turned me off to boating in general. I was just trying to enjoy the lake with my x girlfreind, but to have such an authoriatarion waterlord dominating the lake like an angry king, I got rid of the paddleboat, and sold the 14' boat that I had been working on fixing up. I haven't been back out on a boat since, and that was 8 years ago.

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    what would happen if you refuse?? I think it's horse feces as well. We boated on Higgins lake for about 8 years and seen this happen many times. I never stopped when they got close. Just gave them a wave and continued on my way. What is there RAS to "inspect" you???



    just found this in the Michigan boating handbook online

    It's the Law: On the Water
    Enforcement
    The boating laws of Michigan are enforced by officers of the Law Enforcement Division of the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, County Sheriff's Department, U.S. Coast Guard, and any other authorized law enforcement agency. They have the right to stop and board vessels in order to check for compliance with federal and state laws. The USCG has enforcement authority on federally controlled waters.
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    I did find this.

    http://www.boat-ed.com/mi/handbook/enforce.htm

    and this: (basically the same information)

    http://www.boater101.com/Course/docu...Istatelaws.pdf


    However, that is not a law reference. It says: "They have the right to stop and board vessels in order to check for compliance with federal and state laws." But under what law is that allowed?






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    324.80166 Peace officers; stopping of vessels; duty of operator; reasonable suspicion; furnishing false information as misdemeanor; arrests without warrant.


    Sec. 80166.

    (1) Upon the direction of a peace officer acting in the lawful performance of his or her duty, the operator of a vessel moving on the waters of this state shall immediately bring the vessel to a stop or maneuver it in a manner that permits the peace officer to come beside the vessel. The operator of the vessel shall do the following upon the request of the peace officer:

    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.

    (b) Exhibit the certificate of number awarded for the vessel.

    (c) If the vessel does not bear a decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state, submit to a reasonable inspection of the vessel and to a reasonable inspection and test of the equipment of the vessel.

    (2) Except for inspection of a vessel to determine the number and adequacy of personal flotation devices on that vessel, a peace officer shall not stop and inspect a vessel bearing the decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state during the period the decal remains in effect unless that peace officer has a reasonable suspicion that the vessel or the vessel's operator is in violation of a marine law.

    (3) A person who is detained for a violation of this part or of a local ordinance substantially corresponding to a provision of this part and who furnishes a peace officer false, forged, fictitious, or misleading verbal or written information identifying the person as another person is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (4) A peace officer who observes a marine law violation may immediately arrest the person without a warrant or issue to the person a written or verbal warning.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Modern day pirates. Bah.
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.
    So, this would be included in "Stop and Identify" type statues that MI has. It appears that there are 3 specific instances of this:

    1) While driving

    2) While CC'ing

    3) While Boating
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    warrior1978 wrote:
    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.
    Satisfied verbally.

  10. #10
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    Well I think I found how the local police took more of our rights:


    http://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary//admin...igan%20DNR.pdf


    They entered into an agreement with the USCG




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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.
    So, this would be included in "Stop and Identify" type statues that MI has. It appears that there are 3 specific instances of this:

    1) While driving

    2) While CC'ing

    3) While Boating
    Add snowmobiling to that list (324.82158 ) and hunting/fishing.

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    coderdude wrote:
    Well I think I found how the local police took more of our rights:


    http://www.uscg.mil/auxiliary//admin...igan%20DNR.pdf


    They entered into an agreement with the USCG


    Did you actually read what the agreement said before you posted it????

    It basically increases information sharing and increases the number of people authorized to give out stickers. How are your feathers ruffled here?

  13. #13
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    warrior1978 wrote:
    324.80166 Peace officers; stopping of vessels; duty of operator; reasonable suspicion; furnishing false information as misdemeanor; arrests without warrant.


    Sec. 80166.

    (1) Upon the direction of a peace officer acting in the lawful performance of his or her duty, the operator of a vessel moving on the waters of this state shall immediately bring the vessel to a stop or maneuver it in a manner that permits the peace officer to come beside the vessel. The operator of the vessel shall do the following upon the request of the peace officer:

    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.

    (b) Exhibit the certificate of number awarded for the vessel.

    (c) If the vessel does not bear a decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state, submit to a reasonable inspection of the vessel and to a reasonable inspection and test of the equipment of the vessel.

    (2) Except for inspection of a vessel to determine the number and adequacy of personal flotation devices on that vessel, a peace officer shall not stop and inspect a vessel bearing the decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state during the period the decal remains in effect unless that peace officer has a reasonable suspicion that the vessel or the vessel's operator is in violation of a marine law.

    (3) A person who is detained for a violation of this part or of a local ordinance substantially corresponding to a provision of this part and who furnishes a peace officer false, forged, fictitious, or misleading verbal or written information identifying the person as another person is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (4) A peace officer who observes a marine law violation may immediately arrest the person without a warrant or issue to the person a written or verbal warning.
    It seems to say that the only way an officer may legally stop a boat with a current sticker is to inspect the number and adequacy of flotation devices. Barring any obvious things like intoxication, abuse, assault, etc., of course. This wouldn't stop them from pushing their limits, or tricking a person into voluntarily waiving his or her rights, though. Interesting.
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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    warrior1978 wrote:
    324.80166 Peace officers; stopping of vessels; duty of operator; reasonable suspicion; furnishing false information as misdemeanor; arrests without warrant.


    Sec. 80166.

    (1) Upon the direction of a peace officer acting in the lawful performance of his or her duty, the operator of a vessel moving on the waters of this state shall immediately bring the vessel to a stop or maneuver it in a manner that permits the peace officer to come beside the vessel. The operator of the vessel shall do the following upon the request of the peace officer:

    (a) Provide his or her correct name and address.

    (b) Exhibit the certificate of number awarded for the vessel.

    (c) If the vessel does not bear a decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state, submit to a reasonable inspection of the vessel and to a reasonable inspection and test of the equipment of the vessel.

    (2) Except for inspection of a vessel to determine the number and adequacy of personal flotation devices on that vessel, a peace officer shall not stop and inspect a vessel bearing the decal described in section 80166a or an equivalent decal issued by or on behalf of another state during the period the decal remains in effect unless that peace officer has a reasonable suspicion that the vessel or the vessel's operator is in violation of a marine law.

    (3) A person who is detained for a violation of this part or of a local ordinance substantially corresponding to a provision of this part and who furnishes a peace officer false, forged, fictitious, or misleading verbal or written information identifying the person as another person is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (4) A peace officer who observes a marine law violation may immediately arrest the person without a warrant or issue to the person a written or verbal warning.
    It seems to say that the only way an officer may legally stop a boat with a current sticker is to inspect the number and adequacy of flotation devices. Barring any obvious things like intoxication, abuse, assault, etc., of course. This wouldn't stop them from pushing their limits, or tricking a person into voluntarily waiving his or her rights, though. Interesting.
    Just for clarification, the sticker being referred to is not the registration decal. It is the sticker that is given by the Coast Guard or some Sheriff Offices that show that the vessel has previously been inspected for safety equipment. The reason a vessel can be reinspected for PFDs is because it is very common for PFDs to move from one vessel to another and be on one particular vessel one day and gone the next.

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    I have been stopped for inspection while driving my boat many times and what what really irritated me was the information they got when running the numbers. They would always tell me "I see you don't owe any money on the boat". What business is it of theirs how much money is owed?

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    I was stopped (County Sheriff) on an inland lake and was told I had to have a wearable floatation device for each person. I said that only applies to Great Lakes and their waterways and that seat cushions were all I needed on this particular lake. The deputy made me go back to my dock and get wearable devices.

    The next day I went to the Department and explained the law to them. The next time the sheriffs patrol boat slowed down and asked to show floatation devices we showed them our seat cushions and he went on his way satisfied.




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