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Thread: Virginia Question - Privileges For Permittees (P4P) Does it help or hurt RKBA?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    P4P – P4P – P4P – P4P - Virginia Question - Privileges For Permittees (P4P) Does it help or hurt the RKBA in the Commonwealth? P4P-P4P-P4P-P4P-P4P

    Does the continued effort to enhance the privileges that the Commonwealth grants to Concealed Handgun Permit holders (permittees) help or hurt the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the Commonwealth?

    I believe that P4P is at best a double edged sword.

    The middle ground is dangerous.[/b] The concealed handgun permit is a sort of middle ground between “government trained and government trusted” LEO and citizen. It gives emotionally charged anti-gunners a sense of security when they have the power to grant (and remove) gun privileges. The problem is that the P4P system is based on emotion, not logic. The consequence is that the privilege is not always even related to the permit. The classic example is: Why is your legal ability to carry an AK 47 with a folding stock in Norfolk dependent on whether you have obtained a concealed handgun permit? Do not forget that when the political winds are unfavourable to gun owners this middle ground can be used very effectively by the antis to harm gun rights with efforts short of outright bans.

    Outright conversion of a right into a privilege is possible.[/b] My parents live in Florida. There is no RKBA in Florida (unless you are going fishing!) The right has been snuffed out and replaced by a concealed carry privilege. The ability of a state to destroy a right by allowing a privilege is, IMHO, the most dangerous aspect of P4P.

    Healing the Rift.[/b] There is a rift between open and concealed carriers. Each sees the other as having the potential to harm their ability to carry as they see fit. This fault line is already out there and will only get worse in the future. It will be used by the anti gunners to try and isolate the open carriers from the larger group of concealed carriers. We should make the passage of Constitutional Carry our top 2011 priority. Arizona did it. This sort of rift doesn’t exist in Arizona. Virginia needs to be next.

    Imagine a Commonwealth where CC=Constitutional Carry!!!

    Live Free or Die,

    Thundar

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Actually I wouldn't want to see permits disappear completely. If we didn't have CHPs, we couldn't carry on K-12 property in our vehicles (due to Federal "GFSZA") or go within 1000ft of a K-12 school (also due to Fed "GFSZA"). Plus we'd be out of luck when traveling in other states that aren't as gun friendly but recognize VA's permit.

    I'd be happy with a system like AZ or AK where permits are available to those who want them, but they aren't needed to CC in-state.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    Actually I wouldn't want to see permits disappear completely. If we didn't have CHPs, we couldn't carry on K-12 property in our vehicles (due to Federal "GFSZA") or go within 1000ft of a K-12 school (also due to Fed "GFSZA"). Plus we'd be out of luck when traveling in other states that aren't as gun friendly but recognize VA's permit.

    I'd be happy with a system like AZ or AK where permits are available to those who want them, but they aren't needed to CC in-state.
    Constitutional Carry includes the optional permit so that you mayexercise the CCprivilegein states with reciprocity.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    I recently came across this site, I'm sure many of you have already read it. Here's what this guy says about a carry permit system:

    Legal Theory of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms; Copyright © 1994 Constitution Society. Permission is granted to copy with attribution for noncommercial purposes.
    (13) A carry permit system essentially is a removal of restrictions against bearing arms on public and private property unless there is an express prohibition against doing so, either in the form of a posted sign or a directive from the owner or his agent. The rationale for issuing such permits is to equip persons of good character to more effectively function as militiamen or police in situations in which regular police are not available or insufficient. That also includes self-protection, but the key factor is the duty to perform police duties as necessary. There also needs to be explicit statutory protection of the state or other permit issuing authority against criminal or civil liability for any acts done by the permit holder. One kind of carry permit is that which is one of the "special police powers" of regular law-enforcement officers, which allows them to carry anywhere, even against the express wishes of a property owner.


    I think that makes sense, especially if read in the context of the other points on that site, such as where you have the right to bear arms and who may deny that right and when. Wherever the State has the constitutional authority to restrict bearing arms, the carry permit system essentially removes some or all of those restrictions for those able-bodied persons of the militia to be more effective.

    Asking whether there should be perks for permits isn't the crux of the matter; the real question is: are the restrictions imposed on non-permitted persons constitutional? Would you argue against a carry permit system that granted exemption from restrictions that are constitutional?

    Are any or all of the following a denial, by Virginia, of the right to keep and/or bear arms?
    Carry concealed firearms.
    Purchase more than one handgun in a 30-day period.
    Carry certain firearms in public places.
    Carry firearms at the General Assembly.
    Carry firearms in State Parks and other State-managed forests and wildlife management areas.
    Open and/or concealed carry in reciprocal States.

    I do not think the P4Ps hurt the RKBA; laws which deny the right do the real damage. The permit perks give some people the option of a little breathing room until the laws are challenged and defeated by the judicial or legislative departments.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Never mind.. I said I wasn't gonna rant anymore today.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Never mind.. I said I wasn't gonna rant anymore today.
    aw, come on... I'm not quite set in my ways; I've got to start somewhere.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    virginiatuck wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Never mind.. I said I wasn't gonna rant anymore today.
    aw, come on... I'm not quite set in my ways; I've got to start somewhere.
    No...That's something everyone has to make up their own mind about.
    Besides, if I post anything that even sounds remotely like common sense, the thread will get locked, moved or deleted...speaking of which, I asked John to delete the poll after he moved it.

    Anyway, everybody has to decide for themselves if they want to be a state that has a lot of privileges but no rights or a state with rights and equal privilages for CHPS.

    The only difference is how hard you have to fight in the GA.

    A couple of years ago when I was having one of my famous conversations with a Dog Hunter who was lost....:X

    He said "We is all hunters ain't we"
    I said "Just because we all hunt doesn't mean we're buddies". (Not exact wording. This is a family board)

    Yes, there is a rift!

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    virginiatuck wrote:
    I recently came across this site, I'm sure many of you have already read it.* Here's what this guy says about a carry permit system:

    Legal Theory of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms; Copyright © 1994 Constitution Society. Permission is granted to copy with attribution for noncommercial purposes.
    (13) A carry permit system essentially is a removal of restrictions (infringements) against bearing arms on public and private property unless there is an express prohibition against doing so, either in the form of a posted sign or a directive from the owner or his agent. (Why bother with the 2nd half of this sentence. It's true for OC and CC.) The rationale for issuing such permits is to equip persons of good character (Decided by who? The state) to more effectively function as militiamen or police (I have no desire to do so) in situations in which regular police are not available or insufficient. Which is almost the point of carrying a gun anyway no? That also includes self-protection, but the key factor is the duty (It's every persons own duty to handle their own defense) to perform police duties as necessary. ??? CCers are not cops. They are citizens with guns who have no special powers. There also needs to be explicit statutory protection of the state or other permit issuing authority against criminal or civil liability for any acts done by the permit holder. Individual responsibility One kind of carry permit is that which is one of the "special police powers" of regular law-enforcement officers, which allows them to carry anywhere, even against the express wishes of a property owner. A power which should be available to neither police nor other citizens


    I think that makes sense, especially if read in the context of the other points on that site, such as where you have the right to bear arms and who may deny that right and when.* Wherever the State has the constitutional authority to restrict bearing arms, the carry permit system essentially removes some or all of those restrictions for those able-bodied persons of the militia to be more effective.
    I think it'd be an affront to one of the >10 most sacred rights afforded to citizens of this state. I think it's a terrible idea. It'd place more power in the hands of those who deserve it least, and take power from the individual.

    I do not think the P4Ps hurt the RKBA; laws which deny the right do the real damage.* The permit perks give some people the option of a little breathing room until the laws are challenged and defeated by the judicial or legislative departments.

    [b]It's easier for Joe Shmoe to get a government permission slip than it is to complain to his elected representatives and lobby for an end to overbearing and often mindless (gun) laws. So if you think any of the things you listed are unconstitutional then please explain how P4P does not hurt the RKBA.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Constitutional Carry is the right thing to do - pun intended.

    CWP -may be the next logical step ifthe support is not there to get to get Constitutional Carry through the GA. Maybe a combination of both - permits being optional.

    There is a lot of home work/lobbying to be done before the next GA session.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Section 13 of the Virginia Constitution states we have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say "except concealed".

    Paying for a right is unconstitutional and it needs to be abolished.

    Any permitting system should be entirely voluntary and at state expense (without a fee or any sort of tax hike). If other states would institute constitutional carry, then they would not demand another state's permit to exercise a right.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Constitutional Carry is the right thing to do - pun intended.

    CWP -may be the next logical step ifthe support is not there to get to get Constitutional Carry through the GA. Maybe a combination of both - permits being optional.

    There is a lot of home work/lobbying to be done before the next GA session.

    Yata hey
    There are really a lot of directions that we could go Grape.

    If baby steps are needed, at least take them in the right direction like private property CC without a permit, Curtalage has been bandied about in the courts so much, there's no telling where it starts and stops.

    Another baby step would to allow concealment during severe weather like the hunting exception....just make it anywhere.

    Another baby step would be to insert the word "Loaded" in the statute.

    There are a lot of ways a toddler can go and still be headed home.

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    230therapy wrote:
    Section 13 of the Virginia Constitution states we have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say "except concealed".

    Paying for a right is unconstitutional and it needs to be abolished.

    Any permitting system should be entirely voluntary and at state expense (without a fee or any sort of tax hike). If other states would institute constitutional carry, then they would not demand another state's permit to exercise a right.
    In a perfect world.

    Lobby for that, get a legislator to sponsor a bill that accomplishes that - I'll pray for you.

    Or get involved and chose those battles that are realistically obtainable and fight the good fight.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Permits hurt the second amendment. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A permit is an infringement. There are conditionsmade, it costs money, a list is kept of those who have applied and who have receivedpermits, there isa waiting period, approval is subject to government, and the permit may be revoked at any time.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Permits hurt the second amendment. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A permit is an infringement. There are conditionsmade, it costs money, a list is kept of those who have applied and who have receivedpermits, there isa waiting period, approval is subject to government, and the permit may be revoked at any time.
    Not here it isn't. Yes it is a hassle, but state law requires the permit to be issued within 45 days unless you have a criminal record or restraining order (in other words, can't own a gun anyways). For renewals, there is no waiting period if you renew before your old one expires. And it can only be revoked if you are convicted of a crime or become subject to a restraining order (and can't own guns then)

    Yes I agree that permits are unconstitutional though.

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    nova wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Permits hurt the second amendment. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A permit is an infringement. There are conditionsmade, it costs money, a list is kept of those who have applied and who have receivedpermits, there isa waiting period, approval is subject to government, and the permit may be revoked at any time.
    Not here it isn't. Yes it is a hassle, but state law requires the permit to be issued within 45 days unless you have a criminal record or restraining order (in other words, can't own a gun anyways). For renewals, there is no waiting period if you renew before your old one expires. And it can only be revoked if you are convicted of a crime or become subject to a restraining order (and can't own guns then)

    Yes I agree that permits are unconstitutional though.
    It appears to me that 45 days is a waiting period.

    If the government makes a mistake and takes the permit is there an appeals process? While the permit is mistakenly revoked isw carry under the permit allowed?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kwikrnu wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Not here it isn't. Yes it is a hassle, but state law requires the permit to be issued within 45 days unless you have a criminal record or restraining order (in other words, can't own a gun anyways). For renewals, there is no waiting period if you renew before your old one expires. And it can only be revoked if you are convicted of a crime or become subject to a restraining order (and can't own guns then)

    Yes I agree that permits are unconstitutional though.
    It appears to me that 45 days is a waiting period.

    If the government makes a mistake and takes the permit is there an appeals process? While the permit is mistakenly revoked isw carry under the permit allowed?
    The answers to revocation begin in section "J"

    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    IMO this moving too far off topic for further discussion on this thread.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Not here it isn't. Yes it is a hassle, but state law requires the permit to be issued within 45 days unless you have a criminal record or restraining order (in other words, can't own a gun anyways). For renewals, there is no waiting period if you renew before your old one expires. And it can only be revoked if you are convicted of a crime or become subject to a restraining order (and can't own guns then)

    Yes I agree that permits are unconstitutional though.
    It appears to me that 45 days is a waiting period.

    If the government makes a mistake and takes the permit is there an appeals process? While the permit is mistakenly revoked isw carry under the permit allowed?
    The answers to revocation begin in section "J"

    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    IMO this moving too far off topic for further discussion on this thread.

    Yata hey
    Yep...a little far in left field.

    My concern is that CHP's are being used to lure people into getting one when they really don't have any real desire for one.

    My favorite example is Bow hunting.
    Even on my own property, I can't carry a handgun while bow hunting, but my wife can.

    Fishing in a WMA. Off hunting season, I can't carry but my wife can.

    There's a rather long list of exceptions but you get the idea.

    As far as future abuse of CHP holders. Replace CHP with drivers license. A DL is to make sure a driver has the proper training to drive a car.
    The number of things that a DL can be suspended for is long and getting longer every year.

    Did you know that if you demand a jury trial for any reason or offense and lose...you either pay the Jury expenses or lose your license. Same thing with a court appointed lawyer.

    I think they can still suspend it for not paying support.

    What the GA givith...the GA can taketh away.

    Now I get the same answer all the time. I need one to stay legal driving by schools...etc.

    Fine, get a CHP. BUT don't support a bill that allows you to have special privileges (Like carrying while bow hunting)

    That's when we start to not like each other and the rift gets wider.

    I would love to go past a business that had a sign that said "NO CONCEALED FIREARMS"

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    It is dead on topic.

    The government can deny for public drunkeness, two misdemeanors, or if they think one might be negligent.

    The applicant has to show competence and has to provide fingerprints.

    The department has probably made mistakes and I'd bet at least one permit has been revoked improperly.

    Permits hurt the right to bear arms. People get their permit and forget that it is a right to bear arms. People have come to expect that anyone who carries should be background checked and passes a training class. No good comes of permits.

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    kwikrnu wrote:

    The applicant has to show competence and has to provide fingerprints.
    Here I can use a hunter safety course or if you were mil your DD214 for proof of "competency' and fingerprinting depends on county. I think more don't require them than do.

    And I doubt you'll find someone who dislikes permits more than me. I had to go three years of OC (though it's what brought me to OCDO, made me new friends, and the world of OC, which I'll continue to be a part of) before the state would give me that piece of printer paper making CC legal for me, because they thought I was too young. But that's just state law.

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    I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.
    Appeal Procedure
    If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.
    Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



    +++++


    Granted, I just looked at what's required for non-res VA permits... makes me glad I live here because it is MUCH easier and less intrusive for residents! I don't think I gave any more info on the app. than what I have to put down on the form when buying a gun from a dealer. No pics, no fingerprints, etc.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.
    Appeal Procedure
    If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.
    Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



    +++++


    Granted, I just looked at what's required for non-res VA permits... makes me glad I live here because it is MUCH easier and less intrusive for residents! I don't think I gave any more info on the app. than what I have to put down on the form when buying a gun from a dealer. No pics, no fingerprints, etc.
    Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    And this is about OC how?

    Anyone not specifically excluded by statute may OC in Va. without a permit.

    Don't see that Tennessee will recognize a non-resident Va. permit for kwik.
    http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.htm

    So what is left - maybe he's going to travel to another state that will recognize a Va. non-resident permit.

    Virginia = AK, AR, AZ, DE, FL, ID, IN, KY, LA, MI, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NE, NM, OH, OK, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT*, WV, WY

    Michigan (MI), South Carolina (SC), Florida (FL), will not honor non-resident permits from residents of the issuing states. (* Vermont (VT) & Alaska (AK). Anyone who can legally own a firearm can carry it concealed. No Permit/license is required.)

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    nova wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.
    Appeal Procedure
    If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.
    Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



    +++++


    Granted, I just looked at what's required for non-res VA permits... makes me glad I live here because it is MUCH easier and less intrusive for residents! I don't think I gave any more info on the app. than what I have to put down on the form when buying a gun from a dealer. No pics, no fingerprints, etc.
    Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    And this is about OC how?

    Yata hey
    Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

    The topic is, do permits hurt the right to bear arms? I think they do and have stated why and given examples of how VA permits infringe upon the God given right to bear arms.

    God given rights do not stop at a State border.

    By creating a privilegeby which citizens may obtainhandgun carry permits the government has violatedthe constitution. Not onlydoes the government allow permit holders to carry concealed, but allows the permitees to carry where non-permitees are not allowed.

    If you read gun forums where concealed carry is the theme you'll find that many with permits degrade open carriers and claim the permit system with its checks is superior and much safer.

    I find the attitude of many with carry permits to be dangerous to the right to bear arms. I find the attitude of government to dangerous to the right to keep and bear arms. Bearing arms is not a privilege it is a right and unless treated as such it may be lost despite the clear language of the Constitution.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    And this is about OC how?

    Yata hey
    Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

    Maybe you misspoke again.

    The hearing referred to regarding permits is a judicial procedure (ore tenus) - these are not restricted to in-state residents.

    An ore tenus hearing - a request for verbal presentation to the judge to hear both sides - this is part of the appeal process in response to a lower court judge's decision. I see an extra step involved, but no denial of the procedure.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...Concealed.shtm

    And this is about OC how?

    Yata hey
    Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

    Maybe you misspoke again.

    The hearing referred to regarding permits is a judicial procedure (ore tenus) - these are not restricted to in-state residents.

    An ore tenus hearing - a request for verbal presentation to the judge to hear both sides - this is part of the appeal process in response to a lower court judge's decision. I see an extra step involved, but no denial of the procedure.

    Yata hey

    This is what I saw on the VA website which led me to believe there was no hearing for a non-resident.



    residents

    Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order.

    Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60-days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within sixty days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of § 17.1-410 B, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.



    non-residents

    If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.

    Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



    Upon a closer reading is it true that a denial of a handgun permit in VA is not appealable to the Supreme Court of the State? Another reason why permits are no good for the right to keep and bear arms.

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