Virginia Question - Privileges For Permittees (P4P) Does it help or hurt RKBA?

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kwikrnu wrote:

I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.

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Appeal Procedure

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nova wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.

Click to expand...

Appeal Procedure

If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.
Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



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Granted, I just looked at what's required for non-res VA permits... makes me glad I live here because it is MUCH easier and less intrusive for residents! I don't think I gave any more info on the app. than what I have to put down on the form when buying a gun from a dealer. No pics, no fingerprints, etc.

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Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

And this is about OC how?

Anyone not specifically excluded by statute may OC in Va. without a permit.

Don't see that Tennessee will recognize a non-resident Va. permit for kwik.
http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.htm

So what is left - maybe he's going to travel to another state that will recognize a Va. non-resident permit.

Virginia = AK, AR, AZ, DE, FL, ID, IN, KY, LA, MI, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NE, NM, OH, OK, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT*, WV, WY

Michigan (MI), South Carolina (SC), Florida (FL), will not honor non-resident permits from residents of the issuing states. (* Vermont (VT) & Alaska (AK). Anyone who can legally own a firearm can carry it concealed. No Permit/license is required.)

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

nova wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

I just had my fingerprintstaken for myVA out of state application. If denied I don't get an appeal, that's the gov for you.

Click to expand...

Appeal Procedure

If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.
Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



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Granted, I just looked at what's required for non-res VA permits... makes me glad I live here because it is MUCH easier and less intrusive for residents! I don't think I gave any more info on the app. than what I have to put down on the form when buying a gun from a dealer. No pics, no fingerprints, etc.

​

Click to expand...

Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

And this is about OC how?

Yata hey

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Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

The topic is, do permits hurt the right to bear arms? I think they do and have stated why and given examples of how VA permits infringe upon the God given right to bear arms.

God given rights do not stop at a State border.

By creating a privilegeby which citizens may obtainhandgun carry permits the government has violatedthe constitution. Not onlydoes the government allow permit holders to carry concealed, but allows the permitees to carry where non-permitees are not allowed.

If you read gun forums where concealed carry is the theme you'll find that many with permits degrade open carriers and claim the permit system with its checks is superior and much safer.

I find the attitude of many with carry permits to be dangerous to the right to bear arms. I find the attitude of government to dangerous to the right to keep and bear arms. Bearing arms is not a privilege it is a right and unless treated as such it may be lost despite the clear language of the Constitution.

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kwikrnu wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

And this is about OC how?

Yata hey

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Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

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Maybe you misspoke again.

The hearing referred to regarding permits is a judicial procedure (ore tenus) - these are not restricted to in-state residents.

An ore tenus hearing - a request for verbal presentation to the judge to hear both sides - this is part of the appeal process in response to a lower court judge's decision. I see an extra step involved, but no denial of the procedure.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Hmmm - seems kwik misspoke - there is an appeal procedure in place and it is right on the Virginia State Police web site: Appeal Procedure

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

And this is about OC how?

Yata hey

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Yes, I made a mistake, I meant hearing, something which out of State people do not get.

Click to expand...

Maybe you misspoke again.

The hearing referred to regarding permits is a judicial procedure (ore tenus) - these are not restricted to in-state residents.

An ore tenus hearing - a request for verbal presentation to the judge to hear both sides - this is part of the appeal process in response to a lower court judge's decision. I see an extra step involved, but no denial of the procedure.

Yata hey

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This is what I saw on the VA website which led me to believe there was no hearing for a non-resident.



residents

Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order.

Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60-days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within sixty days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of § 17.1-410 B, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.



non-residents

If you are denied a nonresident concealed handgun permit and do not believe that you have a previous conviction or other disqualification that renders you ineligible, you may contact the Firearms Transaction Center to discuss the ineligible determination and/or to provide additional information deemed pertinent to the final determination of eligibility.

Any person denied a permit and not satisfied with the explanation provided by the Firearms Transaction Center may appeal such denial to the Superintendent of State Police provided that any such action is initiated within 30-days of the denial by the State Police. Such appeal must be in writing, setting forth any grounds, which the applicant wishes to be considered. The Superintendent of State Police shall consider each such appeal, and will notify the applicant in writing of his decision within five (5) business days after the day on which the appeal is received.



Upon a closer reading is it true that a denial of a handgun permit in VA is not appealable to the Supreme Court of the State? Another reason why permits are no good for the right to keep and bear arms.

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A non-resident always has the option of filing suit - that is just starting one rung lower on the ladder than where a resident begins their appeal process IMO. Either way they could get their hearing in court.

The non-resident gets benefit of the state police reviewing the state police's decision first - isn't that nice? Are the two circumstances identical - no. Don't see that they need to be.

Anyway have fun with it Leonard - I'm gone.

Yata hey

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230therapy wrote:

Section 13 of the Virginia Constitution states we have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say "except concealed".

Paying for a right is unconstitutional and it needs to be abolished.

Any permitting system should be entirely voluntary and at state expense (without a fee or any sort of tax hike). If other states would institute constitutional carry, then they would not demand another state's permit to exercise a right.

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exactly. A+. 100%. Two thumbs up. Etc. The only reason that I need a "permit" to carry in another state is because that state is also trying to turn a right into a privilege.